We've been in the house for 9 years. It is a townhouse, and is about
20-25 years old. Last night, I noticed a good deal of heat radiating
from a small area of the on-grade concrete slab. As far as I know, I do
not have radiant heat (but I suppose anything is possible, especially
considering the way things were done in these houses). The area is
about 8-10 feet square, and extends from a tiny powder room to the
adjacent laundry room. The powder room has tile on the concrete, the
laundry room is bare concrete. Overall, the slab is roughly 15 x 50.

The hottest spot seems to be in the area close to where the powder room
sink drain goes into the floor. The drain pipe itself is not hot, just
ever so slightly warm from conducting the heat up from the floor. It's
barely noticeable, actually. The floor, however, is VERY warm to the
touch- I would estimate somewhere between 110-120 degrees. I felt the
heat even through a bathroom rug (and the tile)! I put a thermometer on
the floor at what felt to be the warmest spot, and the air temperature
at the floor was about 15 degrees higher than the rest of the house (86
vs 71).

The further you get from this area, the less warm the floor. I do not
see any pipes (other than the drain) going to the floor. There is a
drain in the laundry room for the washing machine. I do not know what
path the drain takes once it is under the slab. The main drain stack is
on the opposite wall. The main stack pipe did not feel warm.

I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

I checked with the neighbor, and there is nothing odd going on there.

We have heat pump heat, and the coil is located on the wall opposite
from the hot spot. No smoke or odd smells.

I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over. This wouldn't totally surprise me, as for example, I have
no control over my porch light. The porch light is on a light sensor,
and there is no switch- just the breaker. So, anything is possible in
this place. They did some really odd things.

Any ideas of what is going on here? Thanks.

wrote in message
oups.com...
We've been in the house for 9 years. It is a townhouse, and is about
20-25 years old. Last night, I noticed a good deal of heat radiating
from a small area of the on-grade concrete slab. As far as I know, I do
not have radiant heat (but I suppose anything is possible, especially
considering the way things were done in these houses). The area is
about 8-10 feet square, and extends from a tiny powder room to the
adjacent laundry room. The powder room has tile on the concrete, the
laundry room is bare concrete. Overall, the slab is roughly 15 x 50.

The hottest spot seems to be in the area close to where the powder room
sink drain goes into the floor. The drain pipe itself is not hot, just
ever so slightly warm from conducting the heat up from the floor. It's
barely noticeable, actually. The floor, however, is VERY warm to the
touch- I would estimate somewhere between 110-120 degrees. I felt the
heat even through a bathroom rug (and the tile)! I put a thermometer on
the floor at what felt to be the warmest spot, and the air temperature
at the floor was about 15 degrees higher than the rest of the house (86
vs 71).

The further you get from this area, the less warm the floor. I do not
see any pipes (other than the drain) going to the floor. There is a
drain in the laundry room for the washing machine. I do not know what
path the drain takes once it is under the slab. The main drain stack is
on the opposite wall. The main stack pipe did not feel warm.

I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

I checked with the neighbor, and there is nothing odd going on there.

We have heat pump heat, and the coil is located on the wall opposite
from the hot spot. No smoke or odd smells.

I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over. This wouldn't totally surprise me, as for example, I have
no control over my porch light. The porch light is on a light sensor,
and there is no switch- just the breaker. So, anything is possible in
this place. They did some really odd things.

Any ideas of what is going on here? Thanks.


Sounds like a hot water leak (probably in or under the slab), from the
plumbing that supplies the powder and/or laundry rooms. Close the cutoff
valve on your water heater and see if the noise stops.

- Dennis Brothers

wrote in message
oups.com...
We've been in the house for 9 years. It is a townhouse, and is about
20-25 years old. Last night, I noticed a good deal of heat radiating
from a small area of the on-grade concrete slab. As far as I know, I do
not have radiant heat (but I suppose anything is possible, especially
considering the way things were done in these houses). The area is
about 8-10 feet square, and extends from a tiny powder room to the
adjacent laundry room. The powder room has tile on the concrete, the
laundry room is bare concrete. Overall, the slab is roughly 15 x 50.

The hottest spot seems to be in the area close to where the powder room
sink drain goes into the floor. The drain pipe itself is not hot, just
ever so slightly warm from conducting the heat up from the floor. It's
barely noticeable, actually. The floor, however, is VERY warm to the
touch- I would estimate somewhere between 110-120 degrees. I felt the
heat even through a bathroom rug (and the tile)! I put a thermometer on
the floor at what felt to be the warmest spot, and the air temperature
at the floor was about 15 degrees higher than the rest of the house (86
vs 71).

The further you get from this area, the less warm the floor. I do not
see any pipes (other than the drain) going to the floor. There is a
drain in the laundry room for the washing machine. I do not know what
path the drain takes once it is under the slab. The main drain stack is
on the opposite wall. The main stack pipe did not feel warm.

I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

I checked with the neighbor, and there is nothing odd going on there.

We have heat pump heat, and the coil is located on the wall opposite
from the hot spot. No smoke or odd smells.

I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over. This wouldn't totally surprise me, as for example, I have
no control over my porch light. The porch light is on a light sensor,
and there is no switch- just the breaker. So, anything is possible in
this place. They did some really odd things.

Any ideas of what is going on here? Thanks.

there's a leak in the pipes that run under your slab. a pipe that runs from
your water heater to elsewhere has a hole in it. turn off the hot tap valve
on the top of the water heater and see if the hissing and heat goes away.

the fix is to cut a hole in the floor, dig down to the pipe, and fix the
leak.

wrote:

We've been in the house for 9 years. It is a townhouse, and is about
20-25 years old. Last night, I noticed a good deal of heat radiating
from a small area of the on-grade concrete slab. As far as I know, I do
not have radiant heat (but I suppose anything is possible, especially
considering the way things were done in these houses). The area is
about 8-10 feet square, and extends from a tiny powder room to the
adjacent laundry room. The powder room has tile on the concrete, the
laundry room is bare concrete. Overall, the slab is roughly 15 x 50.

The hottest spot seems to be in the area close to where the powder room
sink drain goes into the floor. The drain pipe itself is not hot, just
ever so slightly warm from conducting the heat up from the floor. It's
barely noticeable, actually. The floor, however, is VERY warm to the
touch- I would estimate somewhere between 110-120 degrees. I felt the
heat even through a bathroom rug (and the tile)! I put a thermometer on
the floor at what felt to be the warmest spot, and the air temperature
at the floor was about 15 degrees higher than the rest of the house (86
vs 71).

The further you get from this area, the less warm the floor. I do not
see any pipes (other than the drain) going to the floor. There is a
drain in the laundry room for the washing machine. I do not know what
path the drain takes once it is under the slab. The main drain stack is
on the opposite wall. The main stack pipe did not feel warm.

I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

I checked with the neighbor, and there is nothing odd going on there.

We have heat pump heat, and the coil is located on the wall opposite
from the hot spot. No smoke or odd smells.

I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over. This wouldn't totally surprise me, as for example, I have
no control over my porch light. The porch light is on a light sensor,
and there is no switch- just the breaker. So, anything is possible in
this place. They did some really odd things.

Any ideas of what is going on here? Thanks.


Sounds like leak in hot water line IN the slab:-(

Shut off Main supply valve and see if "hiss" stops.

Don't rush to have slab dug up. See if there are
other ways to route the line above the slab.

Jim

wrote in message


I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

Now that scares me. The thought of a hot water pipe leaking under g round!
If everything is turned off and the meter is running, the water is going
somplace. Check the pipes from the water heater and see if they are hot as
in the water moving through.



I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over.

Possible, but I think you'd have notice in the past nine years.

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:08:37 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:




Clearly you have a hellmouth forming in your basement.
You should either paint a pentagram on the floor around the spot,
or dig it open, depending on which side you're on.

Thanks Charles, Speedy Jim, and Dennis- As far as I know, there are no
pipes in the slab. The pipes appear to run through the walls. The hot
water tank is in the laundry room There is no drywall there, so I can
see the pipes along the ceiling go down to the washer, and branch off
to the laundry room, again high up along the ceiling. It most likely
then turns down the wall in the powder room to the powder room sink. I
suppose there could be a leak there (behind the wall), but absolutely
nothing is wet, or even damp. I guess I can cut a hole in the drywall
behind the powderoom sink to see if the pipes continue down into the
slab from there, but I can't imagine that they would have run the pipes
in the slab, when it is easier to run them between the joists. These
are the only plumbing fixtures on that floor. Maybe it's wishful
thinking, but generally, they did whatever was easiest (which is why
there's no switch on that porch light, I think)

Does any of that change your thoughts at all? Thanks again..

Thanks. You'll see in another post that I am pretty sure there are no
pipes in the slab, as I can see them overhead in some places. Also, as
it turns out, my wife says that she _thinks_ she has noticed the warmth
in the past (she spends more time down there than I do).

Anyway, assume for a second that my theory is correct. How would such a
system operate? BTW, we are 100% electric, if that matters. Thanks
again!

On 4 Nov 2005 09:53:58 -0800, wrote:
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but generally, they did whatever was easiest
(which is why there's no switch on that porch light, I think)

In a COA, the porch lights may be required to be on full time. If that was in
the charter for the COA, then the COA saved some money, and provided a means
of enforcing the rules, by not installing a switch on that light.

The COA I lived in for a while had done exactly that. The also assumed
responsibility for maintaining those fixtures, including lamp replacements.
They ended up replacing all of the incandescent porch fixtures with fixtures
suitable for use with compact flourescent lamps, and fitted with daylight
sensors to turn the lights off during daylight hours.

--
Art Greenberg
artg AT eclipse (remove this) DOT net

wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks. You'll see in another post that I am pretty sure there are no
pipes in the slab, as I can see them overhead in some places. Also, as
it turns out, my wife says that she _thinks_ she has noticed the warmth
in the past (she spends more time down there than I do).

Anyway, assume for a second that my theory is correct. How would such a
system operate? BTW, we are 100% electric, if that matters. Thanks
again!


You still have the running water issue. Closing the water heater cutoff
valve is a simple way to gather more information (unless you're one of those
folks who believe "a few days in the library can often save hours in the
lab" . If in fact you're losing hot water, and something in your house is
suddenly getting warm, I'd not be inclined to think it was mere coincidence.

- Dennis Brothers

The thought had occurred to me Or perhaps a geothermal opening of
some kind.

I'll give it a try when I get home. I don't really know if I am losing
hot water. I don't hear water running in, out, or anywhere near pipes I
can touch (which is from where the cold water comes in, to and from the
water heater, and up to a point before the powder room). I only hear
the slight hiss behind the wall. It could be noise from next door, too.
That only leave the mysterious spinning disc on the water meter. BTW,
there are two meter readouts- one on the meter, and another, connected
by wire, to an odomoeter-type meter outside. Could the spinning thing
just be an indicator that the feed to the outside meter is working?

that could be. This is an HOA, and we are required to keep the lights
on, but we are responsible for all maintenance on them.

That's my next step, except that near as I can tell, the pipes aren't
in the slab- but it's possible I suppose. Will let you know.

In article . com, " wrote:
I'll give it a try when I get home. I don't really know if I am losing
hot water. I don't hear water running in, out, or anywhere near pipes I
can touch (which is from where the cold water comes in, to and from the
water heater, and up to a point before the powder room). I only hear
the slight hiss behind the wall. It could be noise from next door, too.
That only leave the mysterious spinning disc on the water meter.

There's nothing "mysterious" about it -- it means you have a leak. Several
people have told you this already.Why do you find it so hard to believe?

BTW,
there are two meter readouts- one on the meter, and another, connected
by wire, to an odomoeter-type meter outside. Could the spinning thing
just be an indicator that the feed to the outside meter is working?

No. It's an indicator that you have a leak.

How hard is it to close the shutoff valve at the water heater? Seeing whether
the noise stops, and the water meter stops spinning, would certainly provide a
lot more information about what's going on. Why haven't you done this yet?
Afraid of what you'll find?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

wrote:
SNIP

Could the spinning thing
just be an indicator that the feed to the outside meter is working?


No. Spinning means water being used.

Jim

On 4 Nov 2005 11:00:28 -0800, "
wrote:

That's my next step, except that near as I can tell, the pipes aren't
in the slab- but it's possible I suppose. Will let you know.


Where does the OTP valve on your water heater vent to?

" wrote:
We've been in the house for 9 years. It is a townhouse, and is about
20-25 years old. Last night, I noticed a good deal of heat radiating
from a small area of the on-grade concrete slab. As far as I know, I do
not have radiant heat (but I suppose anything is possible, especially
considering the way things were done in these houses). The area is
about 8-10 feet square, and extends from a tiny powder room to the
adjacent laundry room. The powder room has tile on the concrete, the
laundry room is bare concrete. Overall, the slab is roughly 15 x 50.

The hottest spot seems to be in the area close to where the powder room
sink drain goes into the floor. The drain pipe itself is not hot, just
ever so slightly warm from conducting the heat up from the floor. It's
barely noticeable, actually. The floor, however, is VERY warm to the
touch- I would estimate somewhere between 110-120 degrees. I felt the
heat even through a bathroom rug (and the tile)! I put a thermometer on
the floor at what felt to be the warmest spot, and the air temperature
at the floor was about 15 degrees higher than the rest of the house (86
vs 71).

The further you get from this area, the less warm the floor. I do not
see any pipes (other than the drain) going to the floor. There is a
drain in the laundry room for the washing machine. I do not know what
path the drain takes once it is under the slab. The main drain stack is
on the opposite wall. The main stack pipe did not feel warm.

I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

I checked with the neighbor, and there is nothing odd going on there.

We have heat pump heat, and the coil is located on the wall opposite
from the hot spot. No smoke or odd smells.

I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over. This wouldn't totally surprise me, as for example, I have
no control over my porch light. The porch light is on a light sensor,
and there is no switch- just the breaker. So, anything is possible in
this place. They did some really odd things.

Any ideas of what is going on here? Thanks.

Lessee -- slab on grade, slab warm in small area, water meter spinning. Sounds
likes a hot water line leak in / under the slab to moi.

If you shut off the valve to your water heater, does the hissing noise stop, and
the slab gradually cool down?

How hard is it to close the shutoff valve at the water heater? Seeing whether
the noise stops, and the water meter stops spinning, would certainly
provide a
lot more information about what's going on. Why haven't you done this
yet?

Not home right now. Will be doing it when I get there.

Afraid of what you'll find?

You bet.

What is an OTP valve? If that is the over-pressure pipe, it would dump
water right onto the floor - in plain sight.

In article . com, " wrote:
How hard is it to close the shutoff valve at the water heater? Seeing whether
the noise stops, and the water meter stops spinning, would certainly
provide a
lot more information about what's going on. Why haven't you done this
yet?

Not home right now. Will be doing it when I get there.

Afraid of what you'll find?

You bet.

You ought to be more afraid of NOT finding out what's causing it.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, " wrote:

How hard is it to close the shutoff valve at the water heater? Seeing whether

the noise stops, and the water meter stops spinning, would certainly
provide a
lot more information about what's going on. Why haven't you done this
yet?

Not home right now. Will be doing it when I get there.


Afraid of what you'll find?

You bet.


You ought to be more afraid of NOT finding out what's causing it.



Then what might be causing it? Is he on the tip of the volcano that is
about to erupt?

it's a water leak on the side of the meter that is yours. and wasted
water isn't free. if you're the homeowner you need to call a plumber.
if you're a tenant you need to notify the landlord to call a plumber.
call your water meter reading into the water company and ask how much
usage you have since the last reading. match your water bill to a
neighbor's. the difference in dollars will move you to call a plumber
promptly. if the usage is similar then you have caught the problem
early.

on the odd chance that you've encountered a subterranean alien source
of free heat we'll all be wanting your address for free samples.

Shut off all your faucets and observe your water meter for about 15 minutes.
If it moved you have a leak under the slab. Get a plumber get a listening
device on the slab to locate the leak.
Ron
"Dennis Brothers" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
oups.com...
We've been in the house for 9 years. It is a townhouse, and is about
20-25 years old. Last night, I noticed a good deal of heat radiating
from a small area of the on-grade concrete slab. As far as I know, I do
not have radiant heat (but I suppose anything is possible, especially
considering the way things were done in these houses). The area is
about 8-10 feet square, and extends from a tiny powder room to the
adjacent laundry room. The powder room has tile on the concrete, the
laundry room is bare concrete. Overall, the slab is roughly 15 x 50.

The hottest spot seems to be in the area close to where the powder room
sink drain goes into the floor. The drain pipe itself is not hot, just
ever so slightly warm from conducting the heat up from the floor. It's
barely noticeable, actually. The floor, however, is VERY warm to the
touch- I would estimate somewhere between 110-120 degrees. I felt the
heat even through a bathroom rug (and the tile)! I put a thermometer on
the floor at what felt to be the warmest spot, and the air temperature
at the floor was about 15 degrees higher than the rest of the house (86
vs 71).

The further you get from this area, the less warm the floor. I do not
see any pipes (other than the drain) going to the floor. There is a
drain in the laundry room for the washing machine. I do not know what
path the drain takes once it is under the slab. The main drain stack is
on the opposite wall. The main stack pipe did not feel warm.

I thought I heard the sound of water running in a pipe. This sound was
coming from the wall nearest to the warm spot (wall is shared with my
next-door neighbor). I shut off everything in the house that made
noise, and put my ear to the wall. The sound was defintely there, sort
of a hiss. I next looked at my water meter, and saw that the tiny white
spinner on top was turning. There was no water running in the house
that I know of.

I checked with the neighbor, and there is nothing odd going on there.

We have heat pump heat, and the coil is located on the wall opposite
from the hot spot. No smoke or odd smells.

I am stumped, but I have one possible theory, which is that I must have
a small section of radiant heat under the powder room that I have no
control over. This wouldn't totally surprise me, as for example, I have
no control over my porch light. The porch light is on a light sensor,
and there is no switch- just the breaker. So, anything is possible in
this place. They did some really odd things.

Any ideas of what is going on here? Thanks.


Sounds like a hot water leak (probably in or under the slab), from the
plumbing that supplies the powder and/or laundry rooms. Close the cutoff
valve on your water heater and see if the noise stops.

- Dennis Brothers

Thanks to all who responded with useful information. After I got home,
I turned off the feed to the hot water tank, and as you all suspected,
the meter stopped turning and the noise stopped. So, the problem is as
you all stated- a broken pipe in the slab. Also, I compared our water
usage, and it is twice what it should be since the last reading, 30
days ago.

The insurance company has been called, and the adjuster will be here
shortly.

I have a friend who lives in a different devlopment and had similar
work done He liked the people he used- they were fast, and not the most
expensive (or cheapest), so I may use them, but I have a few questions:

What is the "right" way to fix this? Find the leak and fix that one
section of pipe? Replace the entire line? What about it breaking
again? Any way to prevent it? How come I don't have any
visible/detectable water damage?

An alternate routing through the ceiling may be possible, but could be
more expensive, as all the rooms the line would need to run through are
completely finished, and I don't think it's a straight run- I'll ask
the adjuster what he thinks.

Thanks again.

wrote in message
What is the "right" way to fix this? Find the leak and fix that one
section of pipe? Replace the entire line? What about it breaking
again? Any way to prevent it? How come I don't have any
visible/detectable water damage?

Fixing the section may or may not be all you need.l If the pipe is corroeded
for any reason, it will leak in another spot in time. If it was stressed by
a faulty install years ago, the fix would probably be permanant.

I've heard of way of running a secondary tubing down the existing one but
have no other informationon it. A good plumber would know if it is feasble.
Perhaps a PEX line can be run?

The pipe is below grade. chances are, the ater is just going down into the
ground. BTW, it you think you used a lot of water, wait until you get your
heating bill for all of that.

The adjuster was out. He noted that the copper that is visible (from
the water heater) is the lowest grade (thinnest wall) (M?) rather than
the appropriate next one up (L?). he also said that anything in the
ground has to be K. I'm betting it's all the cheap stuff. Anyway, to my
surprise he said I can go ahead and turn on the hot water. I said
thanks, but the water and electric bill will skyrocket. He doubts the
electric would be that much higher (I disagree), but he also said that
once the water passes the meter, it is considered personal property,
and so is covered for loss! All I need to do is show the difference in
usage. I'm still going to keep it shut off, but at least I know we can
turn it on when we need to, without causing additional harm. I asked
him where the water is going, and he feels it's mostly going into the
sand and soil under the slab, and some into the concrete, but not to
worry. Plumber is coming out Monday to determine what needs to be done.
I already know that we will need to open the wall under the sink, see
where the pipes go. Peel off the tile, then start breaking concrete.
Hopefully, the leak will be easy to find (and fix), NOT due to
corrosion (but I'm suspecting it is) and will be where I suspect it to
be. I like the idea of a secondary line inside, but I think it's only
1/4" pipe as it is- I would hate to lose any pressure.

Unfortunately, the adjuster agreed that there isn't really another
viable route, so I think a PEX line is out of the question.

wrote in message
oups.com...
The adjuster was out. He noted that the copper that is visible (from
the water heater) is the lowest grade (thinnest wall) (M?) rather than
the appropriate next one up (L?). he also said that anything in the
ground has to be K. I'm betting it's all the cheap stuff. Anyway, to my
surprise he said I can go ahead and turn on the hot water. I said
thanks, but the water and electric bill will skyrocket. He doubts the
electric would be that much higher (I disagree), but he also said that
once the water passes the meter, it is considered personal property,
and so is covered for loss! All I need to do is show the difference in
usage. I'm still going to keep it shut off, but at least I know we can
turn it on when we need to, without causing additional harm. I asked
him where the water is going, and he feels it's mostly going into the
sand and soil under the slab, and some into the concrete, but not to
worry. Plumber is coming out Monday to determine what needs to be done.
I already know that we will need to open the wall under the sink, see
where the pipes go. Peel off the tile, then start breaking concrete.
Hopefully, the leak will be easy to find (and fix), NOT due to
corrosion (but I'm suspecting it is) and will be where I suspect it to
be. I like the idea of a secondary line inside, but I think it's only
1/4" pipe as it is- I would hate to lose any pressure.

Unfortunately, the adjuster agreed that there isn't really another
viable route, so I think a PEX line is out of the question.

We had a similar underslab leak between the water heater and a kitchen
faucet several years ago. Skilled plumber. Removed baseboard and rerouted
pipe along the wall from the heater to the faucet. I later boxed it in with
a one inch strip above the pipe and a higher baseboard to cover the pipe.
It helped that none of this was in a prominent area. If we'd had to cross
the hallway, we would have needed to excavate through concrete (messy and
expensive) but we lucked out.

SJF

On 5 Nov 2005 05:36:06 -0800, "
wrote:

Thanks to all who responded with useful information. After I got home,
I turned off the feed to the hot water tank, and as you all suspected,
the meter stopped turning and the noise stopped. So, the problem is as
you all stated- a broken pipe in the slab. Also, I compared our water



So when my pipes start to leak I just call the insurance company?
Pipes do wear out why is it the responsiblity of the insurance company
to pay for this repair? Have they insured it since it was new? You
will be better off than before the leak you will have new pipes? If my
car breaks down do I just get a new one and let the isurance company
pay for it?

The federal governmant paid to cleanup after Katrina, will they pay us
when we get a big snow storm? Is there snow storm insurance available?
I want wall to wall news coverage for each snow flake like they did
for the gulf states for each rain drop and strong breeze............

Tom

wrote:
... Anyway, to my
surprise he said I can go ahead and turn on the hot water. I said
thanks, but the water and electric bill will skyrocket. He doubts the
electric would be that much higher (I disagree), ...

I agree with you. I recently calculated that heating water in my house
costs about 4 times as much as the water itself. That's for gas
heating, and for electric it should be even higher.

Mark

p.s. It's about $10.00/ccf to heat water, and $2.50/ccf for the water
itself.

I wish there was another route to take similar to yours, but there just
isn't. It's upstairs on the opposite wall, and not directly opposite.
The adjuster (who was a builder for 20 years) was trying to find a way
also. Just not feasible. Any baseboard-type work would be in a very
prominent area. Thanks for the idea, though.

Answers to your questions in line...


Trekking Tom wrote:
On 5 Nov 2005 05:36:06 -0800, "


So when my pipes start to leak I just call the insurance company?

No, you will also need to call a plumber, unless you are very handy.

Pipes do wear out why is it the responsiblity of the insurance company
to pay for this repair?

Because they took on the responsibility when I paid the premium.

Have they insured it since it was new?

No.

You will be better off than before the leak you will have new pipes?

I hope so.

If my car breaks down do I just get a new one and let the isurance company
pay for it?

I don't know, but I hope it's the middle of the night in the middle of
nowhere with no cell phone service and two guys with a guitar and banjo
find you.


The federal governmant paid to cleanup after Katrina, will they pay us
when we get a big snow storm?

I doubt it. They haven't so far.

Is there snow storm insurance available?

In a way.

:

Do not give up too easily on getting the pipe run someplace other than in
the slab. Breaking the slab may be more expensive than other less obvious
options. A good plumber might find several possible routes that would be
better even if they require wall or trim repair. In some areas plumbers have
a whole lot of experience with this problem.
Don Young

wrote in message
oups.com...
I wish there was another route to take similar to yours, but there just
isn't. It's upstairs on the opposite wall, and not directly opposite.
The adjuster (who was a builder for 20 years) was trying to find a way
also. Just not feasible. Any baseboard-type work would be in a very
prominent area. Thanks for the idea, though.

I had a similar problem. I decided to repipe the house (abandon the slab and
run the pipes through the walls and in the attic) because several houses in
a row had the same problem and I felt fixing the leak in the slab was only
going to be a temporary fix and I was going to install new flooring anyway.
I own a 2-story house, and it took 24 holes in the walls, the smallest about
18" x 18" and the largest about 5' X 18".
Ron






wrote in message
oups.com...
The adjuster was out. He noted that the copper that is visible (from
the water heater) is the lowest grade (thinnest wall) (M?) rather than
the appropriate next one up (L?). he also said that anything in the
ground has to be K. I'm betting it's all the cheap stuff. Anyway, to my
surprise he said I can go ahead and turn on the hot water. I said
thanks, but the water and electric bill will skyrocket. He doubts the
electric would be that much higher (I disagree), but he also said that
once the water passes the meter, it is considered personal property,
and so is covered for loss! All I need to do is show the difference in
usage. I'm still going to keep it shut off, but at least I know we can
turn it on when we need to, without causing additional harm. I asked
him where the water is going, and he feels it's mostly going into the
sand and soil under the slab, and some into the concrete, but not to
worry. Plumber is coming out Monday to determine what needs to be done.
I already know that we will need to open the wall under the sink, see
where the pipes go. Peel off the tile, then start breaking concrete.
Hopefully, the leak will be easy to find (and fix), NOT due to
corrosion (but I'm suspecting it is) and will be where I suspect it to
be. I like the idea of a secondary line inside, but I think it's only
1/4" pipe as it is- I would hate to lose any pressure.

Unfortunately, the adjuster agreed that there isn't really another
viable route, so I think a PEX line is out of the question.

Do not give up too easily on getting the pipe run someplace other than in
the slab. Breaking the slab may be more expensive than other less
obvious
options. A good plumber might find several possible routes that would
be
better even if they require wall or trim repair. In some areas plumbers
have
a whole lot of experience with this problem.
Don Young


Thanks. I will certainly talk to him about it. He has a lot of
experience with this model house.