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#121
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
daestrom wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message ... Waldo wrote: Vaughn wrote: "Pop" wrote in message ... Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills. Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts. Vaughn Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting their generators to their electrical systems. They talk about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw the breakers. There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the link bar. And that inexpensive little link bar is too much trouble to install? Depends, as long as you have adequate panel space then it's not too much trouble. The mechanical link bar kits require the breakers to be positioned opposite each other so you can't use the standard top center main breaker position. Since the link bar requires one of the breakers to be off at all times that means you have to have a dedicated back feed circuit. Ultimately you need four panel spaces for the two breakers and need to install a dedicated back feed outlet. Still a cheaper and easier option than any of the standalone transfer switches. Likely something I will do when I replace the POS Stab-Loc panel in my current house with a decent 40 space QO panel. A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel. FYI, tags alone don't meet the OSHA requirements for tag-out/lock-out in residential setting. Tag-out only works if all employees/personel that have access to the area receive basic tag-out training. Otherwise, locks are required. But that's OSHA. I'm sure you'll argue that such rules don't apply in an emergency (except to the lineman that forgets a step in their procedure and ends up dead). Actually OSHA rules don't apply at all in a non-commercial setting. OSHA only applies to commercial contractors working in a residential setting, not to homeowners. BTW, is powering up your home to save $200 of beef in the freezer, or watch TV an 'emergency'?? daestrom Depends on the situation and it's not as clear cut as you might think. In most circumstances it probably doesn't qualify as an actual emergency, more of an urgent property protection situation. However consider the case where you live in the boonies and are getting the 100yr blizzard of doom. In that situation where you may well not be able to reach a store for days or weeks, preserving your food supplies and watching TV for news reports and info would certainly qualify as an emergency. Pete C. |
#122
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. JoeSixPack writes: You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken. True. I can only comment on ... Trolling anonymous coward. You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken. |
#124
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:
In article , says... wrote: On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also not follow established procedures for his work. Pete C. The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4 transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street, very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the other streets. I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor. The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling factor. Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that might not be good enough), would you really want to risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has died, and the utility and that court are looking to punish someone? -- Get Credit Where Credit Is Due http://www.cardreport.com/ Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system... Pete C. |
#125
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Pete C." wrote in message ... Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote: On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling factor. Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that might not be good enough), would you really want to risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has died, and the utility and that court are looking to punish someone? -- Get Credit Where Credit Is Due http://www.cardreport.com/ Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system... Pete C. Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may not win this argument? |
#126
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
JoeSixPack wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message ... Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote: On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling factor. Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that might not be good enough), would you really want to risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has died, and the utility and that court are looking to punish someone? -- Get Credit Where Credit Is Due http://www.cardreport.com/ Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system... Pete C. Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may not win this argument? The fact remains that there have to be additional failures beyond back feeding for a lineman to be killed. Pete C. |
#127
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
In article ,
"Pete C." wrote: What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from the other source. Could be ugly. If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure, It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN..... Me |
#128
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
In article a2v9f.93$7d.38@trnddc01, "JOHN D"
wrote: "Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Pete C." wrote: I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral and I've seen many transfer switches. Pete C. Then you haven't lived long enough, or inspected enough installations..... Having a Transfer Switch that doesn't switch the Neutral is applicable in the NEC, and legal in some situations. However, and this is a BIG However, if the System Ground should become faulty or the Netural resistance to ground start to rise due to corrosion or other problems, then out of Ballance Backfeeding on a 120/240Vac Single Phase system can happen. Nothing mechanical stays the same forever, and forever is a very long time. **** Happens, and folks that don't understand that are doomed to live the results, for when the wrong "**** Happens" in their world....... Some folks choose to only switch the Hot Legs, but the better way to do it is to switch both Hot and Neutral, and only keep the Ground continious..... Me Your point sounds valid, and I certainly believe "ship happens" (given enough time **** will always happen), but can you cite a specific make and model transfer switch for a residential application that switches the neutral? John Square D makes them in various sizes. Most folks just get a 3Phase Transfer Switch and use the third set of contacts for the Neutral. Two Hots and a Neutral, all switched....... Me |
#129
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Me wrote: In article a2v9f.93$7d.38@trnddc01, "JOHN D" wrote: "Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Pete C." wrote: I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral and I've seen many transfer switches. Pete C. Then you haven't lived long enough, or inspected enough installations..... Having a Transfer Switch that doesn't switch the Neutral is applicable in the NEC, and legal in some situations. However, and this is a BIG However, if the System Ground should become faulty or the Netural resistance to ground start to rise due to corrosion or other problems, then out of Ballance Backfeeding on a 120/240Vac Single Phase system can happen. Nothing mechanical stays the same forever, and forever is a very long time. **** Happens, and folks that don't understand that are doomed to live the results, for when the wrong "**** Happens" in their world....... Some folks choose to only switch the Hot Legs, but the better way to do it is to switch both Hot and Neutral, and only keep the Ground continious..... Me Your point sounds valid, and I certainly believe "ship happens" (given enough time **** will always happen), but can you cite a specific make and model transfer switch for a residential application that switches the neutral? John Square D makes them in various sizes. Most folks just get a 3Phase Transfer Switch and use the third set of contacts for the Neutral. Two Hots and a Neutral, all switched....... Me Here's another one for you - Federal Pioneer (Canadian division) GP3P60-20 60 Amp, 1 Phase, 3 Wire |
#130
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Me wrote:
In article , "Pete C." wrote: What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from the other source. Could be ugly. If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure, It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN..... Me Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors and one contactor per source. In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays, they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous situation. The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in a half switched state which could be hazardous. Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds. If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly cause significant problems. My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two relays or to go with a solid neutral. Pete C. |
#131
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Exactly! but it is never a good idea. Do it safely like a real man, with a
transfer switch. "Pete C." wrote in message ... The fact remains that there have to be additional failures beyond back feeding for a lineman to be killed. Pete C. |
#132
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Probably never pass inspection like that.
"Pete C." wrote in message ... Me wrote: In article , "Pete C." wrote: What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from the other source. Could be ugly. If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure, It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN..... Me Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors and one contactor per source. In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays, they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous situation. The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in a half switched state which could be hazardous. Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds. If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly cause significant problems. My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two relays or to go with a solid neutral. Pete C. |
#133
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
LOL! If nothing else, this set of threads has presented an
excellent who's who for the plonk list! I haven't seen this much silliness since, well, ever, actually! plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; silliness snipped; only serious stuff left in tact |
#134
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Solar Flare wrote:
Probably never pass inspection like that. Er, like what? The way Steve apparently has it currently? Pete C. "Pete C." wrote in message ... Me wrote: In article , "Pete C." wrote: What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from the other source. Could be ugly. If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure, It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN..... Me Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors and one contactor per source. In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays, they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous situation. The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in a half switched state which could be hazardous. Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds. If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly cause significant problems. My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two relays or to go with a solid neutral. Pete C. |
#135
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
Yeah, I couldn't find it in our code right now if my life depended on it but I
doubt you would be allowed to switch a neutral on an independant device. "Pete C." wrote in message ... Solar Flare wrote: Probably never pass inspection like that. Er, like what? The way Steve apparently has it currently? Pete C. "Pete C." wrote in message ... Me wrote: In article , "Pete C." wrote: What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from the other source. Could be ugly. If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure, It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN..... Me Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors and one contactor per source. In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays, they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous situation. The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in a half switched state which could be hazardous. Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds. If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly cause significant problems. My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two relays or to go with a solid neutral. Pete C. |
#136
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
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#137
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
I have to reapeat my previous post since your response seemed unrelated.
"I doubt you would be allowed to switch a neutral on an independant device." wrote in message ... On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 23:08:13 -0500, "Solar Flare" wrote: Yeah, I couldn't find it in our code right now if my life depended on it but I doubt you would be allowed to switch a neutral on an independant device. The short answer is if the generator has the neutral bonded to the frame (equipment ground) the transfer equipment will have to switch the neutral. You can't have 2 bonding jumpers in one system, switching the neutral isolates one of them. Look at "separately derived systems" in the NEC art 250 |
#138
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
I backfeed my paned through a breaker. The backfeed breaker is adjacent to
the main breaker. I created a sliding mechanism that makes it impossible to turn on both breakers at the same time. Works, prevents accidental feedback. No messing around with feedback cable. Easy as 1-2-3: 1. Switch main breaker off 2. Mechanism drops out of the way of backfeed breaker 3. Turn on backfeed breaker. OR 1. Turn off backfeed breaker 2. Lift and hold mechanism while 3. Turning on main breaker. On 27 Oct 2005 14:39:16 -0700, "Tony Wesley" wrote: wrote: Toller wrote: I've done it. Lots of other people have also. But there actually have been fatalities as a result of doing it. I've heard that's never actually happened. I've heard the moon is made of green cheese Can you name one? http://groups.google.com/group/alt.e...99ee436?hl=en& http://groups.google.com/group/alt.e...04bb4bc?hl=en& |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"Pete C." wrote in message ... JoeSixPack wrote: When some minds are made up, no amount of evidence or reasoning can convince them their arguments are faulty. I doubt if they will even respond to your excellent post. The first story in his "excellent" post once again shows that the ultimate cause of the lineman's death was his own carelessness in not following proper procedures, not the generator. He was clearly not wearing his HV gloves or other protective gear. The second story contains no details so a determination of the ultimate cause can't be made. I searched around and was unable to find a detailed report on this incident. It is quite likely that the ultimate cause of the death will be the lineman's own carelessness. The established procedures for line work, if followed will keep the lineman safe regardless of the electrical state of the lines. I'd be quite interested if you have a detailed report of a fatality where all procedures were followed. Pete C. It's not even worth it anymore. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
wrote in message ... I backfeed my paned through a breaker. The backfeed breaker is adjacent to the main breaker. I created a sliding mechanism that makes it impossible to turn on both breakers at the same time. Works, prevents accidental feedback. No messing around with feedback cable. Easy as 1-2-3: 1. Switch main breaker off 2. Mechanism drops out of the way of backfeed breaker 3. Turn on backfeed breaker. OR 1. Turn off backfeed breaker 2. Lift and hold mechanism while 3. Turning on main breaker. Illegal in some jurisdictions. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
If it works for you then use it , some people are hung up on UL as if it was
a GOD. wrote in message ... On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:35:42 GMT, Me wrote: The manufacturers make a very similar product. That may be true, but the OEM's have UL Listings for their equipment and your system doesn't. Yours won't pass anywhere that UL Listed Equipment is required by local building codes. Me It all depends on the inspector. If it is effective why would they care. There is a lot of lesser junk out there with a NRTL sticker. Bear in mind U/L listed the old style aluminum wire, FP breakers, SqD AFCIs. and virtually every recalled appliance that bursts into flames or electrocutes the user. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
"TNT" wrote in message ... If it works for you then use it , some people are hung up on UL as if it was a GOD. Sure, there's nothing the god of UL couldn't forgive you for. |
#145
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
I found the guys really helpful www.lionsun.co.uk when I called them
up they explained it all to me. Actually it is very simple.. They helped me. Pete C. wrote: Waldo wrote: Pete C. wrote: Waldo wrote: Vaughn wrote: "Pop" wrote in message ... Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills. Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts. Vaughn Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting their generators to their electrical systems. They talk about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw the breakers. There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the link bar. Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of having both sides connected at the same time. Well, that is what they attempt to do. They do however fail on occasion. A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel. Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors. Your generator hookup is a permanent installation, even if the generator itself is not part of the installation. Pretty common to see at telecom sites as well, permanently installed transfer switchgear and a big ol' IEC style plug on the outside of the building (or ped) to connect a towable generator to when needed. Allows a smaller fleet of towable generators to service multiple sites and also allows central storage and servicing of those generators. Also quite common to see a small Honda generator chained to the base of a pole and powering a cable TV power supply. No transfer switch here, just switch of the main disconnect and wire in the extension cord. The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected with isolation switches My bad, should have read 'transfer switches' An isolating transfer switch would be one type. Also have less common make before break paralleling transfer switches. seems to go right over their heads. They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you ask me. The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC. Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable. Agreed, but depends upon your definition of an emergency situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not available and a generator must be brought in to provide power then I would consider that to be an emergency requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but not an emergency. Everything is relative, but in an ice storm where there is a real risk of damage from frozen pipes in a short time period that would meet my definition of emergency. If there are children or elderly who are not as able to handle the cold as a typical healthy adult that would be an emergency. In hot weather were some people would be at risk without A/C. Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code requires it for the safety of everyone involved! It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in permanent installations. And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a portable generator that gets connected through a transfer switch to the house during extended power outages. When line power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent installation, but code still requires it be connected via a transfer switch. You have a permanent installation of generator connection facilities. The generator itself need not be a part of that installation. If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it during power outages then that person should have the means to connect it properly and safely.. And that means can include the knowledge of how to make a safe temporary connection for the one or two times a year they may need it. If it's a fairly frequent occurrence then it justifies at least a basic transfer switch installation, once or twice a year does not if the user is competent. Pete C. |
#146
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
IMHO, many of the safety regulations of the NEC are not directed at the
"competent" person, but at the incompetent people that follow afterwards "Generator" wrote in message ups.com... I found the guys really helpful www.lionsun.co.uk when I called them up they explained it all to me. Actually it is very simple.. They helped me. Pete C. wrote: Waldo wrote: Pete C. wrote: Waldo wrote: Vaughn wrote: "Pop" wrote in message ... Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!" Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills. Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts. Vaughn Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting their generators to their electrical systems. They talk about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw the breakers. There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the link bar. Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of having both sides connected at the same time. Well, that is what they attempt to do. They do however fail on occasion. A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel. Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors. Your generator hookup is a permanent installation, even if the generator itself is not part of the installation. Pretty common to see at telecom sites as well, permanently installed transfer switchgear and a big ol' IEC style plug on the outside of the building (or ped) to connect a towable generator to when needed. Allows a smaller fleet of towable generators to service multiple sites and also allows central storage and servicing of those generators. Also quite common to see a small Honda generator chained to the base of a pole and powering a cable TV power supply. No transfer switch here, just switch of the main disconnect and wire in the extension cord. The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected with isolation switches My bad, should have read 'transfer switches' An isolating transfer switch would be one type. Also have less common make before break paralleling transfer switches. seems to go right over their heads. They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you ask me. The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC. Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable. Agreed, but depends upon your definition of an emergency situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not available and a generator must be brought in to provide power then I would consider that to be an emergency requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but not an emergency. Everything is relative, but in an ice storm where there is a real risk of damage from frozen pipes in a short time period that would meet my definition of emergency. If there are children or elderly who are not as able to handle the cold as a typical healthy adult that would be an emergency. In hot weather were some people would be at risk without A/C. Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code requires it for the safety of everyone involved! It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in permanent installations. And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a portable generator that gets connected through a transfer switch to the house during extended power outages. When line power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent installation, but code still requires it be connected via a transfer switch. You have a permanent installation of generator connection facilities. The generator itself need not be a part of that installation. If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it during power outages then that person should have the means to connect it properly and safely.. And that means can include the knowledge of how to make a safe temporary connection for the one or two times a year they may need it. If it's a fairly frequent occurrence then it justifies at least a basic transfer switch installation, once or twice a year does not if the user is competent. Pete C. |
#147
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
If there was no NEC regulations there may not be any
"competent" people or better yet no definition of "competent". Rules are just a collection of corrections to previous mistakes. "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... IMHO, many of the safety regulations of the NEC are not directed at the "competent" person, but at the incompetent people that follow afterwards |
#148
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
You can get along without a transfer switch as long as
you never make a mistake, but it only takes one mistake to cause you to wish you had installed one. I ran a home gen for several years without a transfer switch - I had the gen cord (with male plug) wired into a spare two-pole breaker and an air-conditioner type disconnect in the garage in line with the cord so that the possibility of a 'suicide cable' configuration was diminished. I knew what to throw/connect/disconnect when and everything worked fine... I was confident with my knowledge and ability. Well, during one power outage I did something in the wrong sequence and all it did was trip the breaker on my generator, but it scared me *big time*. I immediately bought a new one of these (http://www.connecticut-electric.com/10-12K1.asp) on eBay for about half of the store price, selected the circuits to use with it and installed it properly. Now, even my wife can get the backup power going (well, almost): She fried the garage door opener and several other items by not having the twist-lock plug shoved in completely into the generator - it was thus connected without a neutral and several items in my house took offense to this configuration. |
#149
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
replying to Stormin Mormon, Gary Kane wrote:
Check the house grounding. -- |
#150
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Let me start by saying I know this is very dangerous and I don't plan on doing it (I have a new generator and new uninstalled transfer switch) so save your flames. I plan on installing my transfer switch when I get some time in the next month or two.I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would power both 240 and 120 outlets.As dangerous as this is, is this even possible? Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker, or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire neighborhood. |
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#152
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 7:42:08 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote: On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5, wrote: Let me start by saying I know this is very dangerous and I don't plan on doing it (I have a new generator and new uninstalled transfer switch) so save your flames. I plan on installing my transfer switch when I get some time in the next month or two.I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would power both 240 and 120 outlets.As dangerous as this is, is this even possible? Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker, or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire neighborhood. When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just this purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days if we get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ... -- Snag I hope the breaker includes a lockout slide so it and the main breaker cannot be closed at the same time and it's connected to an inlet so that it's to code. It's not hard or expensive to do it right. |
#153
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On 1/24/2014 11:19 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5, wrote: Let me start by saying I know this is very dangerous and I don't plan on doing it (I have a new generator and new uninstalled transfer switch) so save your flames. I plan on installing my transfer switch when I get some time in the next month or two.I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would power both 240 and 120 outlets.As dangerous as this is, is this even possible? Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker, or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire neighborhood. Wow, post from 2005. What storm was active, back then? -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#154
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 05:42:08 -0700, Terry Coombs wrote:
...snip... When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just this purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days if we get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ... Someone here recommended a mechanical 'lockout' sold just for this purpose. Goes in the breaker panel, gives you positive action as to whether generator is going IN or house power is going IN, can't accidentally do both with it. Has very visible display as to which state it's in. I miss the very quiet, very comfortable "octopus in the basement" heat - the old convection furnace, you even added your own thermal mass, like sand on top. The flame powered a thermocouple that powered the thermostat and during power outages, our home kept toasty. Plus, the gentle air flow was constant, with none of that blowing noise and NEVER had the peaks and dips of an air blower system either. But alas, these systems were deemed too inefficient so are never installed anymore and when found are instantly ripped out. |
#155
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On 1/25/2014 10:20 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
Someone here recommended a mechanical 'lockout' sold just for this purpose. Goes in the breaker panel, gives you positive action as to whether generator is going IN or house power is going IN, can't accidentally do both with it. Has very visible display as to which state it's in. I miss the very quiet, very comfortable "octopus in the basement" heat - the old convection furnace, you even added your own thermal mass, like sand on top. The flame powered a thermocouple that powered the thermostat and during power outages, our home kept toasty. Plus, the gentle air flow was constant, with none of that blowing noise and NEVER had the peaks and dips of an air blower system either. But alas, these systems were deemed too inefficient so are never installed anymore and when found are instantly ripped out. http://www.interlockkit.com/ Yes, that would be me. And others before me. I've helped take out octopus furnace. They weren't very energy efficient. I remember when I was a little kid, my parents had the octopus replaced, and put in what was probably a 70 percenter. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#156
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On 1/25/2014 7:19 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:42 AM, Terry Coombs wrote: wrote: On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5, Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker, or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire neighborhood. When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just this purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days if we get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ... I've seen some thing called an Interlockkit. Put two breakers across from each other (one from grid, one from generator). the slider bar helps remember to shut off the mains when turning on the generator. http://www.interlockkit.com/ This stuff works IF your breaker box allows it. My house was built in 1970. Has several main breakers that get fed to secondary breakers that feed the house outlets. No way to get juice from the dryer outlet to the rest of the house without backfeeding the grid. Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration. Make darn sure you don't lose the common. Can make a lot of smoke on your 120V devices. |
#157
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On 1/25/2014 4:18 PM, mike wrote:
http://www.interlockkit.com/ This stuff works IF your breaker box allows it. My house was built in 1970. Has several main breakers that get fed to secondary breakers that feed the house outlets. No way to get juice from the dryer outlet to the rest of the house without backfeeding the grid. Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration. Make darn sure you don't lose the common. Can make a lot of smoke on your 120V devices. In the world of "less than perfect", sometimes you make do with what you got. I sense that you're a reasonably safe operator. Lets keep a good thought that power cuts happen when you're home, not your less skilled relatives. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#158
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:18:38 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:19 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote: On 1/25/2014 7:42 AM, Terry Coombs wrote: wrote: On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5, Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker, or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire neighborhood. When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just this purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days if we get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ... I've seen some thing called an Interlockkit. Put two breakers across from each other (one from grid, one from generator). the slider bar helps remember to shut off the mains when turning on the generator. http://www.interlockkit.com/ This stuff works IF your breaker box allows it. My house was built in 1970. Has several main breakers that get fed to secondary breakers that feed the house outlets. No way to get juice from the dryer outlet to the rest of the house without backfeeding the grid. This brings up an intereting point. Let's say a house has two 150 amp panels side by side. You have a 30 amp portable generator. Is there any reason you can't put a double pole breaker in each panel, together with Intelockit kit or similar from the panel manufacturer, and wire those two breakers in parallel to an inlet that you would then connect the generator to? It would be a bit odd, because if you only opened the main breaker on one panel, you could have the circuits in one panel being fed by the generator, while those in the other panel are still connected to the grid. And if you can do it with two, you could do it with the several panels that you apparently have. If you can't do it then you'd be limited to the generator only being able to supply the circuits in one panel. Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration. Not sure why it would not be code compliant. AFAIK, there isn't anything that says you can't have more than one panel, add a sub-panel, etc. It would be strange to do it if there is no logical reason, and the inspector might look at you like you were nuts, but that doesn't make it a code violation. There is always going to be some exceptional case that complicates things. But at least around here, all the single family homes that I've seen and lived in have had one main panel and perhaps a subpanel for some expansion. Makes sense too, because it's easy, straightforward and less complicated. The places I've seen some of what you describe are older houses that were added onto piece meal, multi-family, major new addition, etc. It's not typical for a single family house built in the 70s. I am seeing two panels here more recently on large homes because they have more circuits than can fit in a single panel. But those are straightforward, side-by-side. A bigger problem with the Interlockit approach I would think would be that the appropriate lockout may not be available for all panels, especially older ones. Make darn sure you don't lose the common. Can make a lot of smoke on your 120V devices. |
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
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#160
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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?
On 1/25/2014 6:59 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/25/2014 2:04 PM, wrote: Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration. Sounds like a split-bus panel. There are up to 6 service disconnects and one of them feeds the bottom of the panel where most of the breakers are. Some of the other service breakers may feed stoves, driers, water heaters.... Not sure why it would not be code compliant. AFAIK, there isn't anything that says you can't have more than one panel, add a sub-panel, etc. It would be strange to do it if there is no logical reason, and the inspector might look at you like you were nuts, but that doesn't make it a code violation. Service input is underground. Comes up into the garage wall with the meter on the outside. Bare cable goes up into the attic and down to the breaker box on the other end of the garage. The code for many years (and maybe when your house was built) requires the service disconnect to be at the nearest practical point inside the building (or outside). It's an arc-fault waiting to happen. Drive a nail thru the cable and the first current limit is the breaker in the distribution system somewhere down the street. Near as I can tell from discussion with the building inspector is that it's strictly against today's code. I looked at installing a transfer switch. Looks like I'd have to replace the meter box and put all the switching and input breakers in that. Not impossible, but more hassle and expense than I'd like. You may be able to put a panel outside with a service disconnect (solves the problem above) and a generator breaker and an interlock. May still be "more hassle and expense than you'd like". |
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