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  #121   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

daestrom wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Waldo wrote:

Vaughn wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...

Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the
same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I
point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to
keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn



Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.


There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup
when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the
handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off
the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
link bar.


And that inexpensive little link bar is too much trouble to install?


Depends, as long as you have adequate panel space then it's not too much
trouble. The mechanical link bar kits require the breakers to be
positioned opposite each other so you can't use the standard top center
main breaker position. Since the link bar requires one of the breakers
to be off at all times that means you have to have a dedicated back feed
circuit.

Ultimately you need four panel spaces for the two breakers and need to
install a dedicated back feed outlet. Still a cheaper and easier option
than any of the standalone transfer switches. Likely something I will do
when I replace the POS Stab-Loc panel in my current house with a decent
40 space QO panel.


A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the
generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.


FYI, tags alone don't meet the OSHA requirements for tag-out/lock-out in
residential setting. Tag-out only works if all employees/personel that have
access to the area receive basic tag-out training. Otherwise, locks are
required.

But that's OSHA. I'm sure you'll argue that such rules don't apply in an
emergency (except to the lineman that forgets a step in their procedure and
ends up dead).


Actually OSHA rules don't apply at all in a non-commercial setting. OSHA
only applies to commercial contractors working in a residential setting,
not to homeowners.

BTW, is powering up your home to save $200 of beef in the
freezer, or watch TV an 'emergency'??

daestrom


Depends on the situation and it's not as clear cut as you might think.

In most circumstances it probably doesn't qualify as an actual
emergency, more of an urgent property protection situation. However
consider the case where you live in the boonies and are getting the
100yr blizzard of doom. In that situation where you may well not be able
to reach a store for days or weeks, preserving your food supplies and
watching TV for news reports and info would certainly qualify as an
emergency.

Pete C.
  #122   Report Post  
JoeSixPack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSixPack writes:

You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken.


True. I can only comment on ...


Trolling anonymous coward.


You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken.


  #123   Report Post  
Antipodean Bucket Farmer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article ,
says...
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back
feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also
not follow established procedures for his work.

Pete C.


The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that
keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny
little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they
still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there
are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4
transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even
bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street,
very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the
other streets.


I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.



Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?



--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
  #124   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:

In article ,
says...
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back
feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also
not follow established procedures for his work.

Pete C.

The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that
keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny
little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they
still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there
are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4
transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even
bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street,
very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the
other streets.


I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.


Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum


Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...

Pete C.
  #125   Report Post  
JoeSixPack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:



On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.


Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum


Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...

Pete C.


Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may
not win this argument?




  #126   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

JoeSixPack wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:



On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.

Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum


Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...

Pete C.


Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may
not win this argument?


The fact remains that there have to be additional failures beyond back
feeding for a lineman to be killed.

Pete C.
  #127   Report Post  
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.


If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me
  #128   Report Post  
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article a2v9f.93$7d.38@trnddc01, "JOHN D"
wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:



I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral
and I've seen many transfer switches.

Pete C.


Then you haven't lived long enough, or inspected enough
installations..... Having a Transfer Switch that doesn't switch the
Neutral is applicable in the NEC, and legal in some situations.
However, and this is a BIG However, if the System Ground should
become faulty or the Netural resistance to ground start to rise
due to corrosion or other problems, then out of Ballance Backfeeding
on a 120/240Vac Single Phase system can happen. Nothing mechanical
stays the same forever, and forever is a very long time. **** Happens,
and folks that don't understand that are doomed to live the results,
for when the wrong "**** Happens" in their world.......
Some folks choose to only switch the Hot Legs, but the better way to
do it is to switch both Hot and Neutral, and only keep the Ground
continious.....


Me


Your point sounds valid, and I certainly believe "ship happens" (given
enough time **** will always happen), but can you cite a specific make and
model transfer switch for a residential application that switches the
neutral?
John



Square D makes them in various sizes. Most folks just get a 3Phase
Transfer Switch and use the third set of contacts for the Neutral.
Two Hots and a Neutral, all switched.......

Me
  #129   Report Post  
Waldo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?



Me wrote:
In article a2v9f.93$7d.38@trnddc01, "JOHN D"
wrote:


"Me" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:



I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral
and I've seen many transfer switches.

Pete C.

Then you haven't lived long enough, or inspected enough
installations..... Having a Transfer Switch that doesn't switch the
Neutral is applicable in the NEC, and legal in some situations.
However, and this is a BIG However, if the System Ground should
become faulty or the Netural resistance to ground start to rise
due to corrosion or other problems, then out of Ballance Backfeeding
on a 120/240Vac Single Phase system can happen. Nothing mechanical
stays the same forever, and forever is a very long time. **** Happens,
and folks that don't understand that are doomed to live the results,
for when the wrong "**** Happens" in their world.......
Some folks choose to only switch the Hot Legs, but the better way to
do it is to switch both Hot and Neutral, and only keep the Ground
continious.....


Me


Your point sounds valid, and I certainly believe "ship happens" (given
enough time **** will always happen), but can you cite a specific make and
model transfer switch for a residential application that switches the
neutral?
John




Square D makes them in various sizes. Most folks just get a 3Phase
Transfer Switch and use the third set of contacts for the Neutral.
Two Hots and a Neutral, all switched.......

Me


Here's another one for you -

Federal Pioneer (Canadian division)
GP3P60-20
60 Amp, 1 Phase, 3 Wire
  #130   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Me wrote:

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.


If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me


Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically
interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors
and one contactor per source.

In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays,
they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with
neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure
will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous
situation.

The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT
relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and
the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one
relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in
a half switched state which could be hazardous.

Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and
the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds.
If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from
one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly
cause significant problems.

My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios
for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route
would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two
relays or to go with a solid neutral.

Pete C.


  #131   Report Post  
Solar Flare
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Exactly! but it is never a good idea. Do it safely like a real man, with a
transfer switch.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

The fact remains that there have to be additional failures beyond back
feeding for a lineman to be killed.

Pete C.



  #132   Report Post  
Solar Flare
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Probably never pass inspection like that.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Me wrote:

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.


If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me


Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically
interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors
and one contactor per source.

In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays,
they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with
neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure
will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous
situation.

The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT
relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and
the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one
relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in
a half switched state which could be hazardous.

Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and
the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds.
If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from
one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly
cause significant problems.

My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios
for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route
would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two
relays or to go with a solid neutral.

Pete C.



  #133   Report Post  
Pop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

LOL! If nothing else, this set of threads has presented an
excellent who's who for the plonk list! I haven't seen this much
silliness since, well, ever, actually!

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plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk; plonk;

silliness snipped; only serious stuff left in tact


  #134   Report Post  
Pete C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Solar Flare wrote:

Probably never pass inspection like that.


Er, like what? The way Steve apparently has it currently?

Pete C.


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Me wrote:

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.

If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me


Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically
interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors
and one contactor per source.

In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays,
they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with
neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure
will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous
situation.

The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT
relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and
the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one
relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in
a half switched state which could be hazardous.

Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and
the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds.
If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from
one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly
cause significant problems.

My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios
for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route
would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two
relays or to go with a solid neutral.

Pete C.

  #135   Report Post  
Solar Flare
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Yeah, I couldn't find it in our code right now if my life depended on it but I
doubt you would be allowed to switch a neutral on an independant device.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Solar Flare wrote:

Probably never pass inspection like that.


Er, like what? The way Steve apparently has it currently?

Pete C.


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Me wrote:

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation

where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.

If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me

Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically
interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors
and one contactor per source.

In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays,
they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with
neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure
will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous
situation.

The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT
relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and
the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one
relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in
a half switched state which could be hazardous.

Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and
the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds.
If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from
one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly
cause significant problems.

My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios
for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route
would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two
relays or to go with a solid neutral.

Pete C.





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Solar Flare
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

I have to reapeat my previous post since your response seemed unrelated.

"I doubt you would be allowed to switch a neutral on an independant device."


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 23:08:13 -0500, "Solar Flare"
wrote:

Yeah, I couldn't find it in our code right now if my life depended on it but

I
doubt you would be allowed to switch a neutral on an independant device.



The short answer is if the generator has the neutral bonded to the
frame (equipment ground) the transfer equipment will have to switch
the neutral. You can't have 2 bonding jumpers in one system, switching
the neutral isolates one of them.

Look at "separately derived systems" in the NEC art 250



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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

I backfeed my paned through a breaker. The backfeed breaker is adjacent to
the main breaker. I created a sliding mechanism that makes it impossible
to turn on both breakers at the same time. Works, prevents accidental
feedback. No messing around with feedback cable. Easy as 1-2-3:
1. Switch main breaker off
2. Mechanism drops out of the way of backfeed breaker
3. Turn on backfeed breaker.
OR
1. Turn off backfeed breaker
2. Lift and hold mechanism while
3. Turning on main breaker.

On 27 Oct 2005 14:39:16 -0700, "Tony Wesley" wrote:

wrote:
Toller wrote:
I've done it. Lots of other people have also. But there actually have been
fatalities as a result of doing it.


I've heard that's never actually happened.


I've heard the moon is made of green cheese

Can you name one?



http://groups.google.com/group/alt.e...99ee436?hl=en&


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.e...04bb4bc?hl=en&


  #139   Report Post  
JoeSixPack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
JoeSixPack wrote:
When some minds are made up, no amount of evidence or reasoning can
convince
them their arguments are faulty.
I doubt if they will even respond to your excellent post.


The first story in his "excellent" post once again shows that the
ultimate cause of the lineman's death was his own carelessness in not
following proper procedures, not the generator. He was clearly not
wearing his HV gloves or other protective gear.

The second story contains no details so a determination of the ultimate
cause can't be made. I searched around and was unable to find a detailed
report on this incident. It is quite likely that the ultimate cause of
the death will be the lineman's own carelessness.

The established procedures for line work, if followed will keep the
lineman safe regardless of the electrical state of the lines. I'd be
quite interested if you have a detailed report of a fatality where all
procedures were followed.

Pete C.



It's not even worth it anymore.


  #140   Report Post  
JoeSixPack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


wrote in message
...
I backfeed my paned through a breaker. The backfeed breaker is adjacent to
the main breaker. I created a sliding mechanism that makes it impossible
to turn on both breakers at the same time. Works, prevents accidental
feedback. No messing around with feedback cable. Easy as 1-2-3:
1. Switch main breaker off
2. Mechanism drops out of the way of backfeed breaker
3. Turn on backfeed breaker.
OR
1. Turn off backfeed breaker
2. Lift and hold mechanism while
3. Turning on main breaker.



Illegal in some jurisdictions.




  #143   Report Post  
TNT
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

If it works for you then use it , some people are hung up on UL as if it was
a GOD.


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:35:42 GMT, Me wrote:

The manufacturers make a very similar product.


That may be true, but the OEM's have UL Listings for their equipment
and your system doesn't. Yours won't pass anywhere that UL Listed
Equipment is required by local building codes.

Me


It all depends on the inspector. If it is effective why would they
care. There is a lot of lesser junk out there with a NRTL sticker.
Bear in mind U/L listed the old style aluminum wire, FP breakers, SqD
AFCIs. and virtually every recalled appliance that bursts into flames
or electrocutes the user.



  #144   Report Post  
JoeSixPack
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


"TNT" wrote in message
...
If it works for you then use it , some people are hung up on UL as if it
was a GOD.


Sure, there's nothing the god of UL couldn't forgive you for.


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Generator
 
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

I found the guys really helpful www.lionsun.co.uk when I called them
up they explained it all to me. Actually it is very simple..

They helped me.

Pete C. wrote:
Waldo wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Waldo wrote:

Vaughn wrote:

"Pop" wrote in message
...


Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn



Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.


There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup
when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the
handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off
the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
link bar.


Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of
having both sides connected at the same time.


Well, that is what they attempt to do. They do however fail on occasion.


A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the
generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.


Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow
may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to
do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and
that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via
a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors.


Your generator hookup is a permanent installation, even if the generator
itself is not part of the installation. Pretty common to see at telecom
sites as well, permanently installed transfer switchgear and a big ol'
IEC style plug on the outside of the building (or ped) to connect a
towable generator to when needed. Allows a smaller fleet of towable
generators to service multiple sites and also allows central storage and
servicing of those generators.

Also quite common to see a small Honda generator chained to the base of
a pole and powering a cable TV power supply. No transfer switch here,
just switch of the main disconnect and wire in the extension cord.



The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
with isolation switches

My bad, should have read 'transfer switches'


An isolating transfer switch would be one type. Also have less common
make before break paralleling transfer switches.

seems to go right over their heads.
They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
ask me.


The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents
for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable
generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC.
Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable.

Agreed, but depends upon your definition of an emergency
situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or
something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not
available and a generator must be brought in to provide
power then I would consider that to be an emergency
requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a
real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but
not an emergency.


Everything is relative, but in an ice storm where there is a real risk
of damage from frozen pipes in a short time period that would meet my
definition of emergency. If there are children or elderly who are not as
able to handle the cold as a typical healthy adult that would be an
emergency. In hot weather were some people would be at risk without A/C.



Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
requires it for the safety of everyone involved!


It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch
in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in
permanent installations.


And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a
portable generator that gets connected through a transfer
switch to the house during extended power outages. When line
power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and
rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent
installation, but code still requires it be connected via a
transfer switch.


You have a permanent installation of generator connection facilities.
The generator itself need not be a part of that installation.


If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it
during power outages then that person should have the means
to connect it properly and safely..


And that means can include the knowledge of how to make a safe temporary
connection for the one or two times a year they may need it. If it's a
fairly frequent occurrence then it justifies at least a basic transfer
switch installation, once or twice a year does not if the user is
competent.

Pete C.




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RBM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

IMHO, many of the safety regulations of the NEC are not directed at the
"competent" person, but at the incompetent people that follow afterwards



"Generator" wrote in message
ups.com...
I found the guys really helpful www.lionsun.co.uk when I called them
up they explained it all to me. Actually it is very simple..

They helped me.

Pete C. wrote:
Waldo wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Waldo wrote:

Vaughn wrote:

"Pop" wrote in message
...


Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get
the same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I
point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to
keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving
skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn



Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.


There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator
hookup
when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is
exactly
what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between
the
handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn
off
the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
link bar.


Not quite. A transfer switch prevents the possibility of
having both sides connected at the same time.


Well, that is what they attempt to do. They do however fail on occasion.


A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts
the
generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.


Depends upon your definition of a competent person. Joe-blow
may certainly think he's competent because he knows how to
do it as you described above. I think I'm competent and
that's why my generator hookup is to code requirements - via
a transfer switch and proper sized cable and connectors.


Your generator hookup is a permanent installation, even if the generator
itself is not part of the installation. Pretty common to see at telecom
sites as well, permanently installed transfer switchgear and a big ol'
IEC style plug on the outside of the building (or ped) to connect a
towable generator to when needed. Allows a smaller fleet of towable
generators to service multiple sites and also allows central storage and
servicing of those generators.

Also quite common to see a small Honda generator chained to the base of
a pole and powering a cable TV power supply. No transfer switch here,
just switch of the main disconnect and wire in the extension cord.



The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
with isolation switches
My bad, should have read 'transfer switches'


An isolating transfer switch would be one type. Also have less common
make before break paralleling transfer switches.

seems to go right over their heads.
They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
ask me.


The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved
equivalents
for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a
portable
generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the
NEC.
Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not
applicable.

Agreed, but depends upon your definition of an emergency
situation. If someone is on a heart-lung machine, or
something of that nature, and a back-up power source is not
available and a generator must be brought in to provide
power then I would consider that to be an emergency
requirement. But a power outage for a few hours is not a
real emergency for most homes, an inconvenience perhaps, but
not an emergency.


Everything is relative, but in an ice storm where there is a real risk
of damage from frozen pipes in a short time period that would meet my
definition of emergency. If there are children or elderly who are not as
able to handle the cold as a typical healthy adult that would be an
emergency. In hot weather were some people would be at risk without A/C.



Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
requires it for the safety of everyone involved!


It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer
switch
in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in
permanent installations.


And how do you define a permanent installation? I have a
portable generator that gets connected through a transfer
switch to the house during extended power outages. When line
power comes back on the generator gets disconnected and
rolled back into the shop. This is not a permanent
installation, but code still requires it be connected via a
transfer switch.


You have a permanent installation of generator connection facilities.
The generator itself need not be a part of that installation.


If a person has a generator on hand and intends to use it
during power outages then that person should have the means
to connect it properly and safely..


And that means can include the knowledge of how to make a safe temporary
connection for the one or two times a year they may need it. If it's a
fairly frequent occurrence then it justifies at least a basic transfer
switch installation, once or twice a year does not if the user is
competent.

Pete C.




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Solar Flare
 
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

If there was no NEC regulations there may not be any
"competent" people or better yet no definition of
"competent". Rules are just a collection of corrections
to previous mistakes.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in
message ...
IMHO, many of the safety regulations of the NEC are

not directed at the
"competent" person, but at the incompetent people

that follow afterwards




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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

You can get along without a transfer switch as long as
you never make a mistake, but it only takes one mistake
to cause you to wish you had installed one.

I ran a home gen for several years without a transfer
switch - I had the gen cord (with male plug) wired into a
spare two-pole breaker and an air-conditioner type
disconnect in the garage in line with the cord so that the
possibility of a 'suicide cable' configuration was
diminished. I knew what to throw/connect/disconnect when
and everything worked fine... I was confident with my
knowledge and ability.

Well, during one power outage I did something in the
wrong sequence and all it did was trip the breaker on
my generator, but it scared me *big time*. I immediately
bought a new one of these
(http://www.connecticut-electric.com/10-12K1.asp) on eBay
for about half of the store price, selected the circuits
to use with it and installed it properly. Now, even my
wife can get the backup power going (well, almost): She
fried the garage door opener and several other items by
not having the twist-lock plug shoved in completely into
the generator - it was thus connected without a neutral
and several items in my house took offense to this
configuration.

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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

replying to Stormin Mormon, Gary Kane wrote:

Check the house grounding.

--


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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Let me start by saying I know this is very dangerous and I don't plan on doing it (I have a new generator and new uninstalled transfer switch) so save your flames. I plan on installing my transfer switch when I get some time in the next month or two.I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would power both 240 and 120 outlets.As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?


Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker, or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire neighborhood.


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Posts: 6,399
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 7:42:08 AM UTC-5, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote:

On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5,


wrote:


Let me start by saying I know this is very dangerous and I don't


plan on doing it (I have a new generator and new uninstalled


transfer switch) so save your flames. I plan on installing my


transfer switch when I get some time in the next month or two.I read


a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your main


breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a


line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you


clothes dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve


as your switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that


this would power both 240 and 120 outlets.As dangerous as this is,


is this even possible?




Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you


feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at


the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to


disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker,


or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire


neighborhood.




When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just this

purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days if we

get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ...

--

Snag


I hope the breaker includes a lockout slide so it and the main breaker
cannot be closed at the same time and it's connected to an
inlet so that it's to code. It's not hard or expensive to do
it right.
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 05:42:08 -0700, Terry Coombs wrote:

...snip...

When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just this
purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days if
we
get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ...


Someone here recommended a mechanical 'lockout' sold just for this
purpose. Goes in the breaker panel, gives you positive action as to
whether generator is going IN or house power is going IN, can't
accidentally do both with it. Has very visible display as to which state
it's in.

I miss the very quiet, very comfortable "octopus in the basement" heat -
the old convection furnace, you even added your own thermal mass, like
sand on top. The flame powered a thermocouple that powered the thermostat
and during power outages, our home kept toasty. Plus, the gentle air flow
was constant, with none of that blowing noise and NEVER had the peaks and
dips of an air blower system either. But alas, these systems were deemed
too inefficient so are never installed anymore and when found are
instantly ripped out.
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On 1/25/2014 10:20 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

Someone here recommended a mechanical 'lockout' sold just for this
purpose. Goes in the breaker panel, gives you positive action as to
whether generator is going IN or house power is going IN, can't
accidentally do both with it. Has very visible display as to which state
it's in.

I miss the very quiet, very comfortable "octopus in the basement" heat -
the old convection furnace, you even added your own thermal mass, like
sand on top. The flame powered a thermocouple that powered the
thermostat and during power outages, our home kept toasty. Plus, the
gentle air flow was constant, with none of that blowing noise and NEVER
had the peaks and dips of an air blower system either. But alas, these
systems were deemed too inefficient so are never installed anymore and
when found are instantly ripped out.


http://www.interlockkit.com/

Yes, that would be me. And others before me.

I've helped take out octopus furnace. They weren't very
energy efficient. I remember when I was a little kid,
my parents had the octopus replaced, and put in what
was probably a 70 percenter.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On 1/25/2014 7:19 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:42 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:
wrote:
On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5,
Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you
feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at
the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to
disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker,
or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire
neighborhood.


When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just
this
purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days
if we
get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ...


I've seen some thing called an Interlockkit. Put two breakers across
from each other (one from grid, one from generator). the slider bar
helps remember to shut off the mains when turning on the generator.

http://www.interlockkit.com/


This stuff works IF your breaker box allows it.
My house was built in 1970. Has several main breakers that get
fed to secondary breakers that feed the house outlets.
No way to get juice from the dryer outlet to the rest of the house
without backfeeding the grid.
Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration.

Make darn sure you don't lose the common. Can make a lot of smoke on
your 120V devices.

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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On 1/25/2014 4:18 PM, mike wrote:

http://www.interlockkit.com/


This stuff works IF your breaker box allows it.
My house was built in 1970. Has several main breakers that get
fed to secondary breakers that feed the house outlets.
No way to get juice from the dryer outlet to the rest of the house
without backfeeding the grid.
Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration.

Make darn sure you don't lose the common. Can make a lot of smoke on
your 120V devices.


In the world of "less than perfect", sometimes
you make do with what you got. I sense that you're
a reasonably safe operator. Lets keep a good thought
that power cuts happen when you're home, not your
less skilled relatives.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:18:38 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
On 1/25/2014 7:19 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 1/25/2014 7:42 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:


wrote:


On Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:49:15 AM UTC-5,


Yes, it can and has been done (by me) in an emergency. Whether you


feed the 240V back thru the dryer cord outlet or directly tap in at


the breaker box, either way you must open the main circuit breaker to


disconnect your house from the mains to avoid electrocuting a worker,


or heavily overloading your generator trying to feed your entire


neighborhood.




When finished my wiring will have a breaker in the panel for just


this


purpose . Out here in the woods we can be left without power for days


if we


get another bad ice storm . Also part of the reason we heat with wood ...




I've seen some thing called an Interlockkit. Put two breakers across


from each other (one from grid, one from generator). the slider bar


helps remember to shut off the mains when turning on the generator.




http://www.interlockkit.com/



This stuff works IF your breaker box allows it.

My house was built in 1970. Has several main breakers that get

fed to secondary breakers that feed the house outlets.

No way to get juice from the dryer outlet to the rest of the house

without backfeeding the grid.


This brings up an intereting point. Let's say a house has
two 150 amp panels side by side. You have a 30 amp portable
generator. Is there any reason you can't put a double pole breaker in
each panel, together with Intelockit kit or similar from the panel
manufacturer, and wire those two breakers in parallel to an
inlet that you would then connect the generator to? It would be
a bit odd, because if you only opened the main breaker on one panel,
you could have the circuits in one panel being fed
by the generator, while those in the other panel are still
connected to the grid.

And if you can do it with two, you could do it with the
several panels that you apparently have. If you can't do
it then you'd be limited to the generator only being able
to supply the circuits in one panel.




Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration.


Not sure why it would not be code compliant. AFAIK, there isn't
anything that says you can't have more than one panel, add a sub-panel,
etc. It would be strange to do it if there is no logical reason,
and the inspector might look at you like you were nuts,
but that doesn't make it a code violation.

There is always going to be some exceptional case that complicates
things. But at least around here, all the single family homes
that I've seen and lived in have had one main panel and
perhaps a subpanel for some expansion. Makes sense too,
because it's easy, straightforward and less complicated. The places
I've seen some of what you describe are older houses that were
added onto piece meal, multi-family, major new addition, etc.
It's not typical for a single family house built in the 70s.
I am seeing two panels here more recently on large homes because they
have more circuits than can fit in a single panel. But those are straightforward, side-by-side.

A bigger problem with the Interlockit approach I would think
would be that the appropriate lockout may not be available
for all panels, especially older ones.




Make darn sure you don't lose the common. Can make a lot of smoke on

your 120V devices.


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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

On 1/25/2014 6:59 PM, mike wrote:
On 1/25/2014 2:04 PM, wrote:



Not code compliant today, but many homes exist with that configuration.


Sounds like a split-bus panel. There are up to 6 service disconnects and
one of them feeds the bottom of the panel where most of the breakers
are. Some of the other service breakers may feed stoves, driers, water
heaters....


Not sure why it would not be code compliant. AFAIK, there isn't
anything that says you can't have more than one panel, add a sub-panel,
etc. It would be strange to do it if there is no logical reason,
and the inspector might look at you like you were nuts,
but that doesn't make it a code violation.

Service input is underground.
Comes up into the garage wall with the meter on the outside.
Bare cable goes up into the attic and down to the breaker box
on the other end of the garage.


The code for many years (and maybe when your house was built) requires
the service disconnect to be at the nearest practical point inside the
building (or outside).


It's an arc-fault waiting to happen.
Drive a nail thru the cable and the first current limit
is the breaker in the distribution system somewhere down the street.
Near as I can tell from discussion with the building inspector is
that it's strictly against today's code.

I looked at installing a transfer switch.
Looks like I'd have to replace the meter box and put all the
switching and input breakers in that. Not impossible, but more
hassle and expense than I'd like.


You may be able to put a panel outside with a service disconnect (solves
the problem above) and a generator breaker and an interlock. May still
be "more hassle and expense than you'd like".


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