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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 28th 05, 01:10 AM
Solar Flare
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

According to the OSHA rules of Ontario. Massive mistakes were made and
management would be held responsible and probably jailed for lying about the
state of the lines in each case.

The generator hookup people would have their pee-pees slapped but no where near
the foreman and the upper people for the deaths.

Now one was in Peurto Rico and there are so many more waiting for jobs that one
isn't gonna' be noticed.

Wire a tranfer switch box in with 4 or 6 circuits you want to be backed up and a
proper plug on the damn thing.
Don't play with people's safety or your own. Your unit coming becoming energized
may not be fun either unless you have money to burn.

The meter base does not isolate the neutral. Unless you have a fault in your
home it won't be a problem.

"Tony Wesley" wrote in message
oups.com...
wrote:
Toller wrote:
I've done it. Lots of other people have also. But there actually have

been
fatalities as a result of doing it.


I've heard that's never actually happened.


I've heard the moon is made of green cheese

Can you name one?




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  #22  
Old October 28th 05, 03:36 AM
Veritas
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

"Jim & Lil" wrote:
... One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even
with your main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line
via the neutral wire..


Most transfer switches do not switch the neutral wire anyway. However,
if your generator and your panel is properly grounded, it should be
almost impossible to energize the neutral enough to do harm, even
without a real transfer switch.

Having said that, obviously, a transfer switch is the only way to go.
Backfeeding an outlet is dangerous and violates the NEC.
  #23  
Old October 28th 05, 05:41 AM
Steve Kraus
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny
should stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood.


I think unless you have some sort of huge generator the load presented by
the outside world will look to the generator as pretty much a short to
ground. It would really have to be a situation where the power outage
resulted in you and your immediate neighbors being islanded. Where I live
there are 10 houses on the same pole transformer and even if that were
isolated I doubt my 4.4 kW machine could pull that load. Maybe if it were
the middle of the night and everyone's fridge just happened to finish
cycling before the power went out and and and... I think the risk is
nearly zip. But for safety to your machine more so than risk to any
lineman it might not be a bad idea to attach a reminder sign to your double
male cable or adaptor or whatever you do this with: TURN OFF MAIN BREAKER
BEFORE USING
  #24  
Old October 28th 05, 06:17 AM
Chris Lewis
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

According to :

As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?


Of course. 4 wire 240V is 4 wire 240V, and breakers don't care
which terminals are the innie and which are the outie ;-)

We were installing a new main panel, and just when we wanted
to transfer the feed, the local power company went on strike.
Out of necessity (because so much had been transferred to the
new panel), we ended up temporarily backfeeding the new main
panel thru its dryer circuit from the old main's dryer circuit.
[The new main didn't have a meter installed nor the main
feed of course.]

During the great ice storm, a friend and I helped a muncipality
out by doing inspections of generator installations. One of them
(installed by a professional electrician) wired the generator
directly into the panel's backplane (they were lucky, they
just got their power back, and all we did was remove the
backfeed and reestablish the real feed). The main breaker
was wired open.

During the same ice storm, we spliced a 100Kw generator directly
into a main panel (after physically disconnecting the line
feed). [This was at the municipal works garage, and became
a base for emergency crews, road clearance, and included the
army's food/fuel distribution center.]

In an emergency, you gotta do what you gotta do. However,
if you do have to do this, you have to do whatever you can
to make it safe (ie: wire or padlock or physically disconnect the
main). Secondly, if you are preparing for an emergency
_before_ the emergency takes place, do it right. Installing
outlets and obtaining a suicide cord is not right.

[Theoretically, an illegal backfeed can earn you a $6000 fine
here. Worse if you hurt someone.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #25  
Old October 28th 05, 06:26 AM
Chris Lewis
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

According to Steve Kraus :
It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny
should stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood.


I think unless you have some sort of huge generator the load presented by
the outside world will look to the generator as pretty much a short to
ground.


Precisely.

A friend of a friend suicide-corded his generator into his house,
and the generator promptly smoked within seconds of firing up.

He forgot the main breaker.

[It managed to fire up because the generator is automatically
not connected during startup, and "engages" when the motor is
up to speed. At which point it started belching smoke and stalled
out.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #26  
Old October 28th 05, 08:18 PM
Me
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article ,
"Toller" wrote:

A couple years ago I asked the same question. Someone came up with at least
one example.
It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny should
stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood. The only way you
could kill a lineman is if YOUR line if down and he is fixing it, or if (and
even this is a reach) you plugged in while he what handling a nearby line.
Of course, even then he is supposed to be protected from live wires by
insulation.


Bzzzzt, wrong answer and asumption, would you like to try for whgat is
behind Door #1.......

In your statement above, you make at least ONE very hugh assumtion that
is NOT correct. You assume that it takes many seconds, or minuets, of
backfeed power to electrocute someone downline. This is patently a
FALSE Assumtion. With the Transformers on the poles any amount of power
that gets put on the line generates an extremely Highvoltage Spike,
upline. It doesn't take, but a few miliseconds, of this spike to fry any
grounded entitiy across the HV side of the line. To protect linemen from
such spikes, they employ Grounding Straps on BOTH SIDES of the work area,
that in theory should protect them from such spikes. If the straps are
not installed correctly or if the workers are installing the straps
without using HotSticks, then they can certainly be ZAPPED by such
spikes, or power backfeed into the system. If you don't believe this
is true, just go ask any Lineman, and be prepared to get an earfull....

Me
  #27  
Old October 28th 05, 08:19 PM
Me
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Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article t,
Steve Kraus wrote:

It does seem unlikely; if your main breaker is closed, your genny
should stall immediately when it tries to power the neighborhood.


I think unless you have some sort of huge generator the load presented by
the outside world will look to the generator as pretty much a short to
ground. It would really have to be a situation where the power outage
resulted in you and your immediate neighbors being islanded. Where I live
there are 10 houses on the same pole transformer and even if that were
isolated I doubt my 4.4 kW machine could pull that load. Maybe if it were
the middle of the night and everyone's fridge just happened to finish
cycling before the power went out and and and... I think the risk is
nearly zip. But for safety to your machine more so than risk to any
lineman it might not be a bad idea to attach a reminder sign to your double
male cable or adaptor or whatever you do this with: TURN OFF MAIN BREAKER
BEFORE USING


Your thinking is just plain wrong.....


Me
  #29  
Old October 28th 05, 08:30 PM
Me
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Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

You are partially mistaken. Some older 240v outlets indeed do not have a
neutral connection, however newer ones do (code change). Since the
ground and neutral are required by code to be bonded at the service
entrance panel you will get the same functionality even if you're
feeding an older dryer outlet with no dedicated neutral i.e. using the
ground as a neutral.

The ground on the circuit may be a gauge lighter wire than the main
conductors which would limit your circuit capacity if you had a large
generator (~7kw or larger), but most people doing a dryer outlet
backfeed will have 5kw or smaller generators in which case even a
reduced gauge ground on a dryer outlet has adequate capacity.

Additionally since not only are the ground and neutral requited by code
to be bonded at the service entrance panel, there is also a required
ground rod (or two) connection at the service entrance panel which makes
it all but impossible to backfeed any power down the line if the main
breaker is off. The additional grounding of the utility system neutral
every few poles provides yet another level of protection.

The true risks are 1. Forgetting to shut off the main breaker, and 2.
Forgetting the danger of the double-male "suicide" cord and proper
connection / disconnection sequences.

Pete C.


There is one very hugh assumption being made here in this thread.
It seems that everyone ASSUMES that all the houses that are going
to be backfeed, have wiring that is in TOTAL Compliance with the NEC,
and that if it was once in compliance, it is still in compliance, many
years later. Just what happens when the Ground Rod connection corrodes?
When was the last time you checked yours? What about the Neutral/Ground
bonding strap? what is the resistance across that today, in your house?
Do you even know? Seems like very big assumptions to "Me"....

Me
  #30  
Old October 29th 05, 03:30 AM
Stormin Mormon
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Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Oh, gee. Don't get started askign for specifics. Usenet is for wild ass
statements completely lackig in truth.

Since you asked, Myrtle Bingle was using her suicide cord in a power cut in
Arkansas in 1956. She neglected to turn off the mains, and killed David
Petersen, who was working on the line outside her house.

Myrtle was a darky, and she was promptly arrested and tried. Spent the rest
of her life in prison. Died last year.

Remember, now, this is Usenet. You can't believe everything you read.
--

Christopher A. Young
Do good work.
It's longer in the short run
but shorter in the long run.
..
..


wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:

I've done it. Lots of other people have also. But there actually have

been
fatalities as a result of doing it.


I've heard that's never actually happened. Can you name one?

Nick


 




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