JoeSixPack wrote:

wrote in message
...

Jim & Lil wrote:


wrote:

I read a post suggesting that in a power outage, you could flip your
main breaker off to prevent anything going to the lines and killing a
line worker, and use a suicide cord from your generator to you clothes
dryer outlet (240 vac) and then your main panel would serve as your
switch for what circuits are using the generator--and that this would
power both 240 and 120 outlets.

As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?

Sounds possible, and safe, unless you guzzle too much beer. You might
hang a big tag on the generator that says "Turn off the main breaker!"


For the added piece of mind, a generator/main selector switch is a modest
investment.
Power failures can result in stress and confusion that make things like
leaving the main breaker on a virtual certtainty at some point. Why take the
chance to save a few bucks.

Reminds me of a accident we had while I was in the navy.
Old Gearing class destroyer with manual transfer to shorepower.
Someone forgot the other breaker and the shipboard distribution
transformer exploded.
When it recieved BOTH ship generator and shorepower.The hot oil from the
transformer took out half the electrical gang in the engineering
compartment.A 1/2 hour "all hands" firefight ensued after towards.
Had to rebuild all the shipboard generators a short time later.




...One thing that was constructive in my replies is that even with your
main braker shut off, you may be still feeding power down the line via
the neutral wire...

That seems a very unlikely hazard, since it requires 1) a grid power
failure, and 2) a hot to neutral connection that doesn't blow your own
breaker, and 3) a neutral wire that doesn't end up attached to ground
somewhere outside your house.

Nick



Unless I'm mistaken, some 240V outlets do not have the neutral wire
connected to the mains. Only a ground wire, which is insufficient to power
the 120V circuits. This would result in 240 service only in the house
wiring, when feeding in from a generator.






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Never! In Ontario.

Contractors are not called for emergencies in our area and if they are ever
caught working to less than Ontario regulations they are "kicked off" the job
and may have charges laid on them. 10K - $100K are common if there is an injury
involved. People are tired of paying for accidents and the Legislators are
trying to stop it from happenning at any cost.

You do **NOT*** have rights as in a court. There is no 5th amendment. If they
find you wrong. You're f**cked You are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.



"Spud" wrote in message
...

"Steve Kraus" wrote in message
nk.net...
Me wrote:

Your thinking is just plain wrong.....

No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many
megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power
outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the
generator output to ground.

What about the downed power line your neighbors, and you.

http://www.google.com/
In the aftermath of a disaster there are circumstances that circumvent
conventional safety procedures. The utility companies rely heavily on
independent construction firms to quickly restore utility lines. Private
contractor employees are sometimes less familiars with the territory and the
established utility company procedures. On top of everything else there is
the stress caused by working long hours in inclement conditions and the
pressure to restore power to thousands of customers some of whom are in dire
need.



A line crew was dispatched at night to restore power to a small restaurant
in a mountainous area. The restaurant was served by a 3-phase, 12.47-kV,
tapline, three spans in length. "The crew found that tree limbs had fallen
into a corner pole (one span from the restaurant) short-circuiting the line
and blowing the fuses back at the tap pole. They also discovered that the
restaurant was using a generator to maintain service."

The foreman confirmed that the main breaker at the restaurant was open,
isolating the utility service. The crew tested and grounded the line a the
tap pole and began repairs. When one lineman climbed the corner pole to
remove limbs, he discovered that the jumpers and connectors were damaged and
decided to replace them. "When he removed the jumpers, he was positioned in
such a way that he was in contact with the under grounded portion of the
line," continues Drew. For some reason, the restaurant owner was checking
the generator and inadvertently closed the main breaker, backing power
through the transformer bank and energizing the line up to the open jumpers.
The lineman received a severe shock and died.


8/29/2005
As the number of personal electric generators grows, so does the threat of
injury to utility workers and generator operators.

If you connect a generator to your electrical panel without isolating it, it
s simply a disaster waiting to happen. A generator thats connected to the
power system can result in power lines being energized to line voltage of
7,200 volts or higher, whether theyre on the ground or still in the air. If
your generator is not isolated from the Cullman EC distribution system, the
transformer at your location acts in reverse and can actually step-up the
normal household voltage of your generator to our system voltage. If your
generator has energized power lines that are on the ground, the energized
lines could prove to be a safety hazard to you, your family, and especially
the linemen working to restore power.

As a matter of fact, a utility worker who was repairing damage from
Hurricane Dennis was killed this past July in south Alabama because of an
improperly installed generator. It is up to you to ensure the safety


Alabama, July 14, 2005 - Sumter Electric Cooperative (SECO) officials report
that a South Carolina lineman helping to restore power in Alabama after the
damage caused by Hurricane Dennis was killed late Tuesday, reportedly by an
improperly installed customer generator.Alabama authorities are looking for
the person responsible and indicate that charges are pending

all electric connections must comply with the National Electrical Code.
You may be liable for damage to property or injury to people that may result
from an improperly installed or operation of an emergency generator.

We don't use potential or current indicator and our "ground straps" are not
straps at all but rather 2/0 or larger copper, tested for impedance, less than
0.02 (forget value) resistance.

The phases are connected to the ground and/or neutral conductor and then with
equipotential grounding techniques our feet are connected to that potential also
in one or maore of many ways. Now we are standing in a certified, insulated to
1KV per inch tested every 6 months, boom mounted bucket doing overhead work. For
U/G work we have 10Kv insulated boots on (law), 20kV insulated class 2 rubber
gloves or whatever class necesasry for system voltage, flash glasses and an
insulated hardhat.

Nothing is ever considered dead unless grounded. Nothing is ever ground without
testing first. Nothing is ever tested without a legally registered process and
documented procedure, checked by at least two other certified people to switch
the piece of line or equipment out. This involves tagged locks and so on and so
on.

People caught violating any process can and will be fired upon multiple or
careless usage at any part.

In short, I do not agree with backfeeding carelessness but the excuse is mostly
crap but they have to tell you something to stop it.


"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Solar Flare" wrote:

How would any lineman know? If they have been "zapped" by this high voltage
spike you speak of, they wouldn't be telling you about it usually.

If they are putting grounds on a line with their bare hands it won't take a
wild
generator to kill them.

"Me" wrote in message
...

They wouldn't have need to tell "Me", as I have been there, and seen
that, many times, in one of my previous lives. Have you ever really
looked at the Grounding Straps used by the Pro's? Have you ever noticed
that they have builtin devices that show if they go "Hot" while
connected? Where did the "Bare Hands" come from? All the linemen, I
have ever known work with UL Approved Insulated Gloves, and HotSticks,
but that doesn't mean they never get zapped or tingled on occasion.

Me

All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a
generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small
generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. Consider that
if a generator is being used then the grid is not intact and how much of it
may be connected to a particular house is variable. It could be that your
service is down, in which case you can only energize your service lines,
possibly on the ground. It may be that your transformer fuse is blown or the
primary is totally disconnected, in which case you may energize your
neighbors house and the high voltage terminal of the transformer. A small
generator is perfectly capable of doing this. The problem is not energizing
the normal loads but energizing lines which may not have any load and are
presumed to be dead. I am sure that linemen are aware of the dangers of
possible backfeeding but others may not be and are not aware of an energized
line hidden in debris. Why create even a potential hazard to people and
property under emergency circumstances if not necessary? There would not be
rules and regulations regarding backfeeding if there were no hazards
involved. A hazard does not mean you can't ever do it without anything bad
happening, but that the possibility is significant.
Don Young
"Steve Kraus" wrote in message
nk.net...
Me wrote:

Your thinking is just plain wrong.....

No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many
megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power
outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the
generator output to ground.

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Toller" wrote:

Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them.
My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.

Well it is easy to see that you "Don't think" period. Just what do you
think happens when your genset tries to energize a segment of the grid
by backfeeding thru the PolePig out on your pole? Does that one or two
second pulse before you little gensets goes up in smoke, show up on the
primary side of the PolePig? At what voltage does that impluse show
up at?. How far does that pulse go, before it dies of IR losses?
When you complete your 100 level College Course on Power & Transmission
come back and tell us all about it. Untill then, don't spread your
intelligence around to deeply cause your not fertilizing any crops.....

Me

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

According to Don Young :
All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a
generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a small
generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid. Consider that
if a generator is being used then the grid is not intact and how much of it
may be connected to a particular house is variable. It could be that your
service is down, in which case you can only energize your service lines,
possibly on the ground. It may be that your transformer fuse is blown or the
primary is totally disconnected, in which case you may energize your
neighbors house and the high voltage terminal of the transformer. A small
generator is perfectly capable of doing this. The problem is not energizing
the normal loads but energizing lines which may not have any load and are
presumed to be dead. I am sure that linemen are aware of the dangers of
possible backfeeding but others may not be and are not aware of an energized
line hidden in debris. Why create even a potential hazard to people and
property under emergency circumstances if not necessary? There would not be
rules and regulations regarding backfeeding if there were no hazards
involved. A hazard does not mean you can't ever do it without anything bad
happening, but that the possibility is significant.

It's worth remembering that in the case of most major events such as our
ice storm, or the hurricanes of this season, it's not just one line
break, it's _thousands_. The segment a generator might _try_ to
energize could be just your lines lying on the ground, just your
neighbors on the same pole pig, or larger. Certainly, if it's anything
much more than that, your generator will stall (and/or smoke) out. But
if it ain't, you may have created a booby trap between you and the pole awaiting
anybody who walks too near, or your neighbor's house, or up on a pole. Possibly
considerably higher than 120V. Ie: if we backfed the feed with a generator
with a break between the last two poles coming to our house, there's a live
4KV line on the ground waiting to bite _anyone_ walking along our driveway.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Toller :

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

Who said anything about 80 square miles?

If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.

Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.

In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Oh, gee. Don't get started askign for specifics. Usenet is for wild ass
statements completely lackig in truth.

Since you asked, Myrtle Bingle was using her suicide cord in a power cut in
Arkansas in 1956. She neglected to turn off the mains, and killed David
Petersen, who was working on the line outside her house.

Myrtle was a darky, and she was promptly arrested and tried. Spent the rest
of her life in prison. Died last year.

Remember, now, this is Usenet. You can't believe everything you read.

Here are two Fatality Assessment and Control Evaluation (FACE) reports
on the deaths of outside wiremen do to generator back feeds.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9002.html
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/in-house/full9005.html
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Toller wrote:

Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.



So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location
of lineman?

But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary
is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So
you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in
my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.

And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and
scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Toller" wrote:

Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them.
My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.

Well it is easy to see that you "Don't think" period. Just what do you
think happens when your genset tries to energize a segment of the grid
by backfeeding thru the PolePig out on your pole? Does that one or two
second pulse before you little gensets goes up in smoke, show up on the
primary side of the PolePig? At what voltage does that impluse show
up at?. How far does that pulse go, before it dies of IR losses?
When you complete your 100 level College Course on Power & Transmission
come back and tell us all about it. Untill then, don't spread your
intelligence around to deeply cause your not fertilizing any crops.....

Me

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

Last outage we had here, we lost a 13.8kv fuse on the main highway. My
house and 10 others in the development. Happened during the day, with not
many folks home. I'm pretty sure a 5kw generator would have energized the
line for more than just a few seconds.

Folks have to remember that the load on the grid segment is highly variable.
During the day, a house might only have a hundred watts or so unless the
fridge kicks on. Add a thermostat for the furnace and you might have 300
watts (furnace blowers don't connect across the line until you energize the
line). So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses.
And that would have made 13.8kV on the downstream side of that fuse out by
the main highway (some 300 yards away from my neighbor's generator).

Do you *really* want to rely on how many lights the neighbor has switched
on? Sure if there is a lot of loads turned on at the moment, your generator
would stall out/smoke very quickly. But if all the lights are off (and the
TV/computer shut off when the power goes off, so they won't come back on),
then a house isn't always the same load and the generator may survive a bit
longer.

I remember hurricane Frederick, back in '79. Power was out for weeks to
some areas. But when the utility started powering up sub-stations, they
would overheat because the long outage had effectively synchronized
everyones load demand. Equipment is normally sized based on a certain
amount of diversity factor between you and your neighbor's A/C, 'fridge,
etc... Leave the power off long enough and when it comes back they *all*
want to start at once. Ka-BOOM!!! goes the sub-station.

Predicting the amount of load drawn by a small group of houses can be a bit
tricky.

daestrom

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Toller :

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile
grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

Who said anything about 80 square miles?

I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there
hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles.

If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.

Yeh, and then what?

Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.

Ah, but that hasn't happed to me.

In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.

That's true in your case, but not in mine.
Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses?
I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage
will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a
lineman on my feed when I turn it on?

And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The
two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the
lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the
voltage.

Still, I have transfer switch now.

George wrote:

...Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on
a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary...

No, you thoughtfully throw the main breaker.

Nick

A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want
you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing.

The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no
other excuse not to.
Your gas
Your solar
Your expenses
Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
Your expertise
Your hard work.
Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?

"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"




"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Toller :

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile
grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

Who said anything about 80 square miles?

I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there
hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles.

If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.

Yeh, and then what?

Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.

Ah, but that hasn't happed to me.

In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.

That's true in your case, but not in mine.
Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses?
I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage
will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a
lineman on my feed when I turn it on?

And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything? The
two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the
lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the
voltage.

Still, I have transfer switch now.

Solar Flare wrote:

A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now want
you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from freezing.

The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you have no
other excuse not to.
Your gas
Your solar
Your expenses
Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
Your expertise
Your hard work.
Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?

"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"


That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I
bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps
they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage
themselves.

As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack
will be documented and the guilty party held for the police.

Pete C.

All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours?


LOL

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Solar Flare wrote:

A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now
want
you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from
freezing.

The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you
have no
other excuse not to.
Your gas
Your solar
Your expenses
Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
Your expertise
Your hard work.
Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?

"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"


That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I
bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps
they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage
themselves.

As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack
will be documented and the guilty party held for the police.

Pete C.

wrote:
George wrote:


...Suppose the primary is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on
a deenergized segment. So you thoughtfully engergize the secondary...


No, you thoughtfully throw the main breaker.

Nick


Apparently, thinking is not a highly held attribute among many posters
to this newsgroup.

Here's a simple solution:
http://www.aecc.com/be-prepared/standby-generator/


Here is another:
http://www.outbackmarine.com.au/Mast...?TypeID=299#74


--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

George wrote:

Toller wrote:

Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them. My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.



So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location
of lineman?

But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary
is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So
you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in
my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.

And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and
scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.

Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.

The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.

There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or injured by
other careless actions than by improperly connected generators. One
report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this one) is
where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the pad and
tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over the the
pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow" connectors
looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag from his
pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He hadn't
checked to see if things were still live and regained consciousness a
short while later with the cops paying more attention to him than the
drunk driver.

Pete C.

Solar Flare wrote:

All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours?

LOL


Uh huh.

Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.

Pete C.


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Solar Flare wrote:

A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in your
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running, now
want
you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from
freezing.

The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you
have no
other excuse not to.
Your gas
Your solar
Your expenses
Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
Your expertise
Your hard work.
Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?

"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"


That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I
bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps
they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage
themselves.

As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack
will be documented and the guilty party held for the police.

Pete C.

I didn't either but the topic at hand was "brick dodgeball vs the tough guy".

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Solar Flare wrote:

All that backup power and you can't sleep for fear of the ninja neighbours?

LOL


Uh huh.

Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.

Pete C.


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Solar Flare wrote:

A transfer switch also avoids the scenario that the power has failed in
your
area for days and the neighbours, seeing your heat and lights running,
now
want
you to "share" some power for a few hours to prevent their pipes from
freezing.

The utility can open the line disconnect ahead of the transformer so you
have no
other excuse not to.
Your gas
Your solar
Your expenses
Your foresight and people laughing at you (maybe only on NGs)
Your expertise
Your hard work.
Your embarassment if your refuse. Ever play brick dodgeball?

"I can't. The system is set up so it can't be done"


That's a simple matter of explaining insurance policies, "You see I
bought this insurance policy called a generator and you didn't". Perhaps
they'll think about investing in an insurance policy for the next outage
themselves.

As for "brick dodgeball", I have a video camera and a gun so any attack
will be documented and the guilty party held for the police.

Pete C.

Exactly! My, and many other's, point! Well said.

It is still advisabe to use transfer switches for generators. Take all the
safety precautions you can. The nightmares and the legal fees may not be worth
what could happen to you or another human being. Despite the bull**** the
Electrical Utilities dish out to the simpleton public.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.

The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.

Pete C.

So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more houses.

Yes, but for the third time, it is 2kw. It tripped once when both the
refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses? 2 houses
would be extraordinary.

According to Pete C. :
Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.

You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
generator?

In emergencies people do wierd things.

Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
: George wrote:
:
: Toller wrote:
:
: Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where
I used my
: generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on
any of them. My
: 2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't
think so.
:
:
:
: So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine
the location
: of lineman?
:
: But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose
the primary
: is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized
segment. So
: you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the
primary (7 Kv in
: my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise
accessable.
:
: And my point being you can't possibly know about every
condition and
: scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you
don't have to.
:
: Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also
the main
: breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.
:
: The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up
and
: backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a
lineman
: directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report
I've
: seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected
home
: generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over
tired
: lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.
:
: There are far more reports of utility linemen being killed or
injured by
: other careless actions than by improperly connected generators.
One
: report I read that springs to mind (the lineman survived this
one) is
: where a drunk driver had plowed a pad mount transformer off the
pad and
: tossed it a few hundred feet. The lineman arrived, walked over
the the
: pad and saw that the high voltage cables with the "elbow"
connectors
: looked to be in good shape so he picked one up, grabbed a rag
from his
: pocket and proceeded to wipe some dirt out of the connector. He
hadn't
: checked to see if things were still live and regained
consciousness a
: short while later with the cops paying more attention to him
than the
: drunk driver.
:
: Pete C.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
:
: So a 5kw generator could conceivably *energize* 10 or more
houses.
:
: Yes, but for the third time, it is 2kw. It tripped once when
both the
: refrigerator and freezer came on at the same time. 10 houses?
2 houses
: would be extraordinary.
:
:
And less than one's enough to kill someone.

"Pop" wrote in message
...
Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"

Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn

Vaughn wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...

Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn



Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.

The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads.
They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
ask me.

Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
requires it for the safety of everyone involved!

Waldo wrote:

Vaughn wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...

Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn



Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.

There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup
when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the
handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off
the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
link bar.

A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the
generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.


The fact that the NEC requires generators to be connected
with isolation switches seems to go right over their heads.
They apparently think it's ok for them to bypass code
requirements because 'they know what they're doing' and
neither them, nor someone else trying to use their generator
will ever make a mistake! Pretty arrogant attitude if you
ask me.

The NEC requires double throw transfer switches or approved equivalents
for permanent generator installations. A temporary hookup of a portable
generator in an emergency situation is not within the scope of the NEC.
Nothing "arrogant" about not not following code that is not applicable.


Bottom line - if you're going to use a generator to energize
your home do it right! Use an isolation switch! The code
requires it for the safety of everyone involved!

It is asinine to claim that you should always install a transfer switch
in order to connect a generator, transfer switches only make sense in
permanent installations.

Pete C.

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Pete C. :
Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.

You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
generator?

In emergencies people do wierd things.

Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

If they could steal a 3,000# skid mounted diesel generator blocked in by
several cars and not wake me up in the process I'd be very very
surprised.

Pete C.

In article ,
says...
Chris Lewis wrote:

According to Pete C. :
Never had a problem sleeping in my warm comfortable house while the
unprepared neighbors sat around in their cold dark homes.

You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
generator?

In emergencies people do wierd things.

Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

If they could steal a 3,000# skid mounted diesel generator blocked in by
several cars and not wake me up in the process I'd be very very
surprised.


Always beware of the, "If I can't have it, then neither
can you," type of morons. They may simply try to
destroy your resources, in order to even out the
"unfair" discrepancy.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

Chris Lewis wrote:


You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
generator?

In emergencies people do wierd things.

Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
--


that may be true, I couldn't say

but I am really bothered by the very racist hurricane thing they are
doing now, what with naming them after GREEK LETTERS.

What do the Greeks have to do with US hurricanes anyway.

It's not like they even start in the Aegean or anything

mk5000

"i'm very curious about different systems, and time you plunge into an
early-adopter situation, there re unknown risks. But I felt that we
could navigate it. It tourned out to be true"--Walter Murch

They ran out of American names

Billy Bob
Billy Rae
Billy Sue
Billy Jean
Billy Joe
Billy Graham

"marika" wrote in message
ups.com...

Chris Lewis wrote:


You mean you slept while your neighbors plotted to steal your
generator?

In emergencies people do wierd things.

Including stealing generators from hospitals and emergency crews.
--


that may be true, I couldn't say

but I am really bothered by the very racist hurricane thing they are
doing now, what with naming them after GREEK LETTERS.

What do the Greeks have to do with US hurricanes anyway.

It's not like they even start in the Aegean or anything

mk5000

"i'm very curious about different systems, and time you plunge into an
early-adopter situation, there re unknown risks. But I felt that we
could navigate it. It tourned out to be true"--Walter Murch

"Don Young" wrote in message
...
All of thisdiscussion, which goes on anytime anyone mentions using a
generator, is valid. Backfeeding is done and it is not possible for a
small generator to energize a significant segment of a power grid.

But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That
justifies this discussion


Don Young
"Steve Kraus" wrote in message
nk.net...
Me wrote:

Your thinking is just plain wrong.....

No, I think I'm on solid ground when I say that a load measuring in many
megaWatts, maybe hundreds of megaWatts depending on the area of the power
outage that I am downstream of, is essentially the same as shorting the
generator output to ground.




It's not megawatts, or watts that kill you, it's current. Even milliamps
can kill when penetrating the skin. Those milliamps can enter the body
quite easily at higher voltages. Backfeeding through a transformer can
produce voltages quite sufficient to conduct those milliamps through a human
body.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Toller :

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile
grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

Who said anything about 80 square miles?

I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there
hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles.

If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.

Yeh, and then what?

Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.

Ah, but that hasn't happed to me.

In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.

That's true in your case, but not in mine.
Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses?
I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage
will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a
lineman on my feed when I turn it on?

And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything?
The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the
lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the
voltage.

Still, I have transfer switch now.


Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from
say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the
transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing
the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps
in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to
reach dangerous conclusions.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
George wrote:

Toller wrote:

Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them.
My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.



So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location
of lineman?

But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary
is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So
you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in
my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.

And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and
scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.

Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.

The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.

Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do
kill linemen.

http://www.clatskaniepud.com/Generators.htm
http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vh...es/generat.htm
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/portgen.html
http://eweb.org/home/energy/generator/index.htm

A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard.

You are a hazard.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
As dangerous as this is, is this even possible?

All I can say is that here in SE Florida since Hurricane Wilma this week,
with 6 million people out of power, with my neighborhood as a sample,
there
must be about 1 million backfed generators hooked up and running. It is
not just commonplace; it is the norm.

One neighbor had a (gypsy) electrician install a 4-wire twist-lock socket
in his garage specifically for backfeeding through a suicide cord.

Just stand in the electrical aisle of Home Depot for 5 minutes. You will
see a steady stream of people buying wire and plugs and asking how to make
a backfeed connection.

The same thing happened on a slightly smaller but still massive scale last
year after Hurricanes Jeanne and Frances. I don't recall any reports of
utility workers or users being harmed by the practice. There were
certainly more people poisoned by carbon monoxide from generators than
hurt
or killed by electrocution from backfeeding or other misuse.

Do you know what a step-down transformer does? It converts 7200 volts to
240 & 120 volts. Do you know what happens when you backfeed 240 volts
through it? It puts 7200 volts back into the line. Do you know how little
current it takes to kill you at such a voltage? Very little. Your limited
knowledge and limited reasoning power are forming dangerous conclusions.
Stop doing that. Someone may get killed because of what you are saying.

I'm not an electrician but here's my 2 cents.
You can't ever let your generator feed back down the power lines. The main
breaker must be off and must stay off. It doesn't matter if your generator
can't possibly power the whole neighborhood or the whole grid..If people
hook up generators to their house wireing, even for a few seconds, without
isolating the house from the line,.sooner or later, somewhere, the right set
of conditions will exist to electrocute a lineman. You can't take that
chance. The main breaker must be off. There must be no chance that anyone
will turn the main breaker back on before the generator connection is
removed. I can see a lot of ways for this to go wrong.

I don't see where there's risk of back feeding through the neutral line any
more than there would be if you have a proper generator transfer switch.
Does a transfer switch isolate the neutral?

"JoeSixPack" wrote in message
news:98i9f.92972$Io.20491@clgrps13...


But at least once, it was energized sufficiently to kill a lineman. That
justifies this discussion

No; we have had to too many times before.

The world is not a perfectly safe place and far more people use far more
common ways to kill themselves and others with gennys.


Vaughn (a guy with a transfer panel)

JoeSixPack wrote:

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Toller :

Geez you're a moron! My 2kw genny is going to power a 80 square mile
grid
for a second or two? Do you understand the concept of "power"?

Who said anything about 80 square miles?

I did; up a few posts. The three time I have used my generator, there
hasn't been a lineman within 10 miles of my house; hence 80 square miles.

If my generator attempted to backfeed the grid during our last outage, it
would have put 4KV on our feed poles without any difficulty whatsoever.

Yeh, and then what?

Hint: the 4KV disconnect feeding our pole pig _only_, had fried.

Ah, but that hasn't happed to me.

In our ice storm, since the closest break was only a few houses away,
the generator would have probably managed to energize two houses'
feeds (people were instructed to kill their main breakers until
told otherwise) and put 4KV up on the local distribution segment.

That's true in your case, but not in mine.
Besides, how long would my 2kw have lasted trying to energize two houses?
I don't bother to bring out the genny unless it is clear that the outage
will last more than a few hours; so what are the odds that there is a
lineman on my feed when I turn it on?

And if there was, would there have been enough amperage to do anything?
The two house, and whatever I have on, is a rather better ground than the
lineman. I doubt he would have gotten measurable amperage despite the
voltage.

Still, I have transfer switch now.


Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down from
say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the
transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone toucing
the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current (milliamps
in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge to
reach dangerous conclusions.

Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The
only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation
required to protect you.

Pete C.

JoeSixPack wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
George wrote:

Toller wrote:

Bull. In the last 5 years we have had 3 poweroutages where I used my
generator. There wasn't a lineman within 5 miles of me on any of them.
My
2kw generator is going to power up 80 square miles? Don't think so.



So you have some sort of radar/GPS/RFID system to determine the location
of lineman?

But lets say you don't and consider other scenerios. Suppose the primary
is knocked down (ice storm etc) leaving you on a deenergized segment. So
you thoughtfully engergize the secondary and hence the primary (7 Kv in
my area) which may be laying on the ground or otherwise accessable.

And my point being you can't possibly know about every condition and
scenerio and that is why you install a disconnect so you don't have to.

Remember the "Always assume a downed power line is live"? Also the main
breaker on your service panel *is* a disconnect.

The main thing here is the even if you, Joe Homeowner screw up and
backfeed the mains, you have virtually zero chance of killing a lineman
directly, only assisting a Darwin award candidate. Every report I've
seen of a utility worker "killed by an improperly connected home
generator" has shown that it was a perhaps overworked / over tired
lineman who got careless and didn't follow procedures.

Stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Backfeeding generators can and do
kill linemen.

http://www.clatskaniepud.com/Generators.htm
http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vh...es/generat.htm
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/portgen.html
http://eweb.org/home/energy/generator/index.htm

A few of the many, many links that warn of this hazard.

You are a hazard.

There is absolutely no misinformation in what I posted. The links you
list border on misinformation in their omissions.

I indicated that if you screw up and back feed the mains you will
provide an opportunity for a careless lineman to kill themselves, not
kill them directly. This is a *fact*. A lineman following established
procedures will *not* be killed by a back feeding generator.

As I've noted, every case I've seen where a lineman was "killed by an
improperly connected generator" has clearly shown that the lineman in
question did not follow proper procedures. If you have references to a
case where a lineman followed procedures and was killed by an
"improperly connected generator" I'd like to see it.

I bet you also believe you can't put metal in a microwave oven...

Pete C.

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
JoeSixPack wrote:


Incredibly stupid discussion. A service transformer steps voltage down
from
say, 7,200 volts to 240/120 volts. Backfeed 240 volts through the
transformer, and 7,200 volts goes back out through the line. Anyone
toucing
the line can be killed at those voltages with very little current
(milliamps
in fact). It can and does happen, so stop using your limited knowledge
to
reach dangerous conclusions.

Um, it only take milliamps to kill you at 120/240 volts as well. The
only difference between 120/240 and 7,200 is amount of insulation
required to protect you.

Pete C.

Exactly right. It only takes milliamps to kill you, but the greater the
voltage, the more milliamps are driven through your skin and into your body.