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Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?



 
 
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  #121  
Old October 31st 05, 11:28 PM
Pete C.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

daestrom wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Waldo wrote:

Vaughn wrote:
"Pop" wrote in message
...

Sooo, all that "data" means it's OK to kill someone that way as
long as it's just a once in awhile thing, eh? "Snot my fault; he
shouldn'ta been workin so tired trying to help all dem peoples!"


Oh dear! Whenever this subject comes up, we never fail to get the
same
fodder from the amateur Internet moralists. Nothing is fail safe, I
point my
car at hundreds of innocent people every day and there is nothing to
keep me
from accidentally killing them, save my (very average) driving skills.

Please save the moralizing and stick to the facts.

Vaughn



Well, it amazes me that there are so many people that have
so many excuses for not properly, and safely, connecting
their generators to their electrical systems. They talk
about safely using suicide cords, throwing main breakers and
other hogwash such as using a sign to remind them to throw
the breakers.


There is nothing improper or unsafe about a temporary generator hookup
when done by a competent person. "Throwing the main breaker" is exactly
what some approved transfer switches do, they have two very ordinary
circuit breakers mounted opposite each other and a link bar between the
handles. The only difference between this arrangement and the "turn off
the main and back feed the dryer circuit" temporary connection is the
link bar.


And that inexpensive little link bar is too much trouble to install?


Depends, as long as you have adequate panel space then it's not too much
trouble. The mechanical link bar kits require the breakers to be
positioned opposite each other so you can't use the standard top center
main breaker position. Since the link bar requires one of the breakers
to be off at all times that means you have to have a dedicated back feed
circuit.

Ultimately you need four panel spaces for the two breakers and need to
install a dedicated back feed outlet. Still a cheaper and easier option
than any of the standalone transfer switches. Likely something I will do
when I replace the POS Stab-Loc panel in my current house with a decent
40 space QO panel.


A competent person switches off and tags the main breaker before they
even haul out the generator, double checks it again after turning off
the dryer circuit breaker and connecting the "suicide cable", starts the
generator and then finally reviews the main breaker once more before
turning on the dryer circuit breaker to power the panel.


FYI, tags alone don't meet the OSHA requirements for tag-out/lock-out in
residential setting. Tag-out only works if all employees/personel that have
access to the area receive basic tag-out training. Otherwise, locks are
required.

But that's OSHA. I'm sure you'll argue that such rules don't apply in an
emergency (except to the lineman that forgets a step in their procedure and
ends up dead).


Actually OSHA rules don't apply at all in a non-commercial setting. OSHA
only applies to commercial contractors working in a residential setting,
not to homeowners.

BTW, is powering up your home to save $200 of beef in the
freezer, or watch TV an 'emergency'??

daestrom


Depends on the situation and it's not as clear cut as you might think.

In most circumstances it probably doesn't qualify as an actual
emergency, more of an urgent property protection situation. However
consider the case where you live in the boonies and are getting the
100yr blizzard of doom. In that situation where you may well not be able
to reach a store for days or weeks, preserving your food supplies and
watching TV for news reports and info would certainly qualify as an
emergency.

Pete C.
Ads
  #122  
Old November 1st 05, 01:27 AM
JoeSixPack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSixPack writes:

You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken.


True. I can only comment on ...


Trolling anonymous coward.


You know nothing of who I am, and are quite mistaken.


  #123  
Old November 1st 05, 02:14 AM
Antipodean Bucket Farmer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article ,
says...
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back
feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also
not follow established procedures for his work.

Pete C.


The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that
keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny
little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they
still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there
are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4
transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even
bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street,
very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the
other streets.


I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.



Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?



--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
  #124  
Old November 1st 05, 03:01 AM
Pete C.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:

In article ,
says...
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The bottom line is that you can not kill a lineman by inadvertently back
feeding the mains. In order for the lineman to be killed he must also
not follow established procedures for his work.

Pete C.

The lineman issue is potentially a problem but the real thing that
keeps you from backfeeding the grid is the grid itself. When your tiny
little generator hits your neighbor's A/C units and whatever else they
still have on, your generator's breaker will trip. On my street there
are about a dozen houses fed from a common secondary set and 4
transformers, all in parallel. It would take a very big genset to even
bump that line. Unless the primary is broken on your dead end street,
very close to your house, you will also be trying to feed all the
other streets.


I'm lucky in that I share a 50KVA transformer with one neighbor.

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.


Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum


Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...

Pete C.
  #125  
Old November 1st 05, 02:51 PM
JoeSixPack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:



On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.


Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum


Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...

Pete C.


Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may
not win this argument?


  #126  
Old November 1st 05, 03:22 PM
Pete C.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

JoeSixPack wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Antipodean Bucket Farmer wrote:



On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:14:58 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

The numerous issues in even creating a situation that could allow a
lineman to kill himself aside, the bottom line is that it will take
careless actions on the lineman's part for an injury to occur. Your
careless back feeding of the mains in the rare case where that is even
possible will not be the cause of death, it will only be an enabling
factor.

Arguing about the details on Usenet is easy. But, even
if you are technically "right," (and, legally, that
might not be good enough), would you really want to
risk arguing the matter in court, AFTER someone has
died, and the utility and that court are looking to
punish someone?

--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum


Let's not get into the corrupt and bogus legal system...

Pete C.


Do you think you might lose a limb or something if you concede that you may
not win this argument?


The fact remains that there have to be additional failures beyond back
feeding for a lineman to be killed.

Pete C.
  #127  
Old November 1st 05, 06:25 PM
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.


If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me
  #128  
Old November 1st 05, 06:29 PM
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

In article a2v9f.93$7d.38@trnddc01, "JOHN D"
wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:



I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral
and I've seen many transfer switches.

Pete C.


Then you haven't lived long enough, or inspected enough
installations..... Having a Transfer Switch that doesn't switch the
Neutral is applicable in the NEC, and legal in some situations.
However, and this is a BIG However, if the System Ground should
become faulty or the Netural resistance to ground start to rise
due to corrosion or other problems, then out of Ballance Backfeeding
on a 120/240Vac Single Phase system can happen. Nothing mechanical
stays the same forever, and forever is a very long time. **** Happens,
and folks that don't understand that are doomed to live the results,
for when the wrong "**** Happens" in their world.......
Some folks choose to only switch the Hot Legs, but the better way to
do it is to switch both Hot and Neutral, and only keep the Ground
continious.....


Me


Your point sounds valid, and I certainly believe "ship happens" (given
enough time **** will always happen), but can you cite a specific make and
model transfer switch for a residential application that switches the
neutral?
John



Square D makes them in various sizes. Most folks just get a 3Phase
Transfer Switch and use the third set of contacts for the Neutral.
Two Hots and a Neutral, all switched.......

Me
  #129  
Old November 1st 05, 07:55 PM
Waldo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?



Me wrote:
In article a2v9f.93$7d.38@trnddc01, "JOHN D"
wrote:


"Me" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:



I've not seen any transfer switches that switch or isolate the neutral
and I've seen many transfer switches.

Pete C.

Then you haven't lived long enough, or inspected enough
installations..... Having a Transfer Switch that doesn't switch the
Neutral is applicable in the NEC, and legal in some situations.
However, and this is a BIG However, if the System Ground should
become faulty or the Netural resistance to ground start to rise
due to corrosion or other problems, then out of Ballance Backfeeding
on a 120/240Vac Single Phase system can happen. Nothing mechanical
stays the same forever, and forever is a very long time. **** Happens,
and folks that don't understand that are doomed to live the results,
for when the wrong "**** Happens" in their world.......
Some folks choose to only switch the Hot Legs, but the better way to
do it is to switch both Hot and Neutral, and only keep the Ground
continious.....


Me


Your point sounds valid, and I certainly believe "ship happens" (given
enough time **** will always happen), but can you cite a specific make and
model transfer switch for a residential application that switches the
neutral?
John




Square D makes them in various sizes. Most folks just get a 3Phase
Transfer Switch and use the third set of contacts for the Neutral.
Two Hots and a Neutral, all switched.......

Me


Here's another one for you -

Federal Pioneer (Canadian division)
GP3P60-20
60 Amp, 1 Phase, 3 Wire
  #130  
Old November 1st 05, 10:25 PM
Pete C.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Backfeed generator through dryer outlet?

Me wrote:

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

What happens if a coil burns out on one of the contactors? One side
switches and the other does not, you could end up with a situation where
you have lost your neutral, i.e. hots from one source and neutral from
the other source. Could be ugly.


If the coil fails, most contactors will be unenergized and that makes
the contacts OPEN in most cases. This is standard for MOST electrical
systems design. You design the system so that if therer is a failure,
It is in the unenergized way and all contactors are OPEN.....

Me


Right and that was my point and also the way I designed my electrically
interlocked transfer switch using only the NO contacts on the contactors
and one contactor per source.

In the RV style auto transfer switches I've seen that use DPDT relays,
they use a single DPDT relay and switch either a 120V source with
neutral, or a 240V source with a solid neutral. A relay coil failure
will leave you stuck on one source but will not create a hazardous
situation.

The transfer switch as described by Steve appears to be using two DPDT
relays to emulate a 4PDT relay with one source on the NO contacts and
the other on the NC contacts, the common feeding the load. With one
relay you are safe, but with two relays a failure of one will put you in
a half switched state which could be hazardous.

Steve stated that the relay on the left was switching the neutral and
the relay on the right was switching the two hot legs of the 240V feeds.
If one of these relays were to fail you would get the two hot legs from
one source and the neutral for the other source which could certainly
cause significant problems.

My recommendation is that Steve review carefully the "what if" scenarios
for the cases of the failure of either relay. I think a safer route
would be to locate a suitable 3PDT or 4PDT contactor to replace the two
relays or to go with a solid neutral.

Pete C.
 




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