Hello everyone,

Winter is just around the corner, and I'm trying to find a way to make my
water heater perform better than it did last year.

First off, it seems a bit too small for my family (50 gallon for 4
people). However, in addition to that I have hot water pipes coming out of
the heater to the bathroom and the kitchen, and I'd say there is at least
6-7 feet of bare copper pipes (before they enter the walls) in this first
floor closet. The closet gets cold in winter. Not too much, but I think
60F degrees is probably what it stays at for couple of months. I wonder if
it adds to our poor heater performance? Do you think water can loose much
temperature going through 6-7 feet of copper pipes? What materials one
uses to insulate the pipes? And, lastly, should the heater itself be
wrapped into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

Thanks for all your feedback and ideas!

Cheers!
D.
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"DA" wrote in message

there is at least
6-7 feet of bare copper pipes (before they enter the walls) in this first
floor closet. The closet gets cold in winter. Not too much, but I think
60F degrees is probably what it stays at for couple of months. I wonder if
it adds to our poor heater performance?

The water in the pipes will cool, but the heat it gives off help heat the
closet. It is not a "loss", but used as part of the home heating.

Do you think water can loose much
temperature going through 6-7 feet of copper pipes?

No, not much t all.


What materials one
uses to insulate the pipes?

You can buy insulation material for pipes at any home improvement store.

And, lastly, should the heater itself be
wrapped into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

Older heaters are helped a lot. Newer heaters have pretty good insulation.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Older heaters are helped a lot. Newer heaters have pretty good
insulation.

Hi Edwin,

Thank you for the insight. My heater seems to be about 5 years old (I
bought this house 1.5 years ago), and it has that yellow "Energy Facts"
label, so I would guess it may already be a pretty efficient one. So, the
verdict would be: it's just too small for the size of the family?


Cheers!
D.
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On 7-Oct-2005, (DA) wrote:

First off, it seems a bit too small for my family (50 gallon for 4
people).

If it's electric, that's probably small. If it's gas, it may be fine.
Gas water heaters recover faster and can be sized smaller. YMMV.

Low-flow shower heads can help if everyone wants to take a shower around
the same time.

I wonder if
it adds to our poor heater performance? Do you think water can loose much
temperature going through 6-7 feet of copper pipes?

If you want to improve the efficiency of the water heater, then you should
insulate these pipes. More than that much would not be useful, as the heat
from the water heater is lost in the first few feet of copper pipe. That
will also reduce by a couple of seconds how long you wait for hot water
when you turn on the tap.

You can get foam insulation specifically for water pipe at Home Depot
or similar improvement stores. It's usually black with peel and stick
adhesive. Usually 3 or 4 foot lengths and in several different inside
diameters to match common copper pipe sizes.

And, lastly, should the heater itself be
wrapped into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

That's debatable. The manufacturers and especially the energy suppliers
say it's unnecessary. Some folks say that for gas heaters, it's dangersous
if done wrong. However, It makes some sense that more insulation means
keeping the heat in longer. Whether it's cost effective is another story.

Mike

It depends.

Re size: depends on t-stat setting and timing/temp/flow-rate of
showers. To better accomodate users: low-flow heads, shorter showers,
lower temp at head, higher t-stat setting at heater.

Re insulation: my experience is that more is better, as far as you can
go, especially in what might be uninsulated/unheated area. Copper is a
great conductor. Insulation can greatly reduce temp drop at head
between showers.

HTH,
J

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
That's debatable. The manufacturers and especially the energy suppliers
say it's unnecessary. Some folks say that for gas heaters, it's
dangersous
if done wrong. However, It makes some sense that more insulation means
keeping the heat in longer. Whether it's cost effective is another story.

One potential problem insulating a gas heater is blocking vents for exhaust
or incoming air.

In the summer, you want to keep the heat in the heater and not waste it. in
the winter, the heat is going into the room that is part of the house that
you are heating anyway. It is not lost at all, but may not be the most cost
effective way of heating your house.

"If you want to improve the efficiency of the water heater, then you
should
insulate these pipes. More than that much would not be useful, as the
heat
from the water heater is lost in the first few feet of copper pipe.
That
will also reduce by a couple of seconds how long you wait for hot water

when you turn on the tap. "

So, the water is back to ambient temp after running through the first
few feet of pipe? If that were the case, you'd never get hot water.
And it isn't going to make hot water show up any faster, except in the
case where it's reused within a reasonably short period, before it
cools off again. But, for example, first thing in the morning, it's
still going to take just about the same amount of time to get hot water
with or without insulation.

"DA" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

Winter is just around the corner, and I'm trying to find a way to make my
water heater perform better than it did last year.

First off, it seems a bit too small for my family (50 gallon for 4
people). However, in addition to that I have hot water pipes coming out of
the heater to the bathroom and the kitchen, and I'd say there is at least
6-7 feet of bare copper pipes (before they enter the walls) in this first
floor closet. The closet gets cold in winter. Not too much, but I think
60F degrees is probably what it stays at for couple of months. I wonder if
it adds to our poor heater performance? Do you think water can loose much
temperature going through 6-7 feet of copper pipes? What materials one
uses to insulate the pipes? And, lastly, should the heater itself be
wrapped into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

Thanks for all your feedback and ideas!

Cheers!
D.

Have you cleaned the tank? I flush mine every 6 months. Water here is
hideous.
Once you think the tank is flushed, then drain the tank and then remove the
drain valve. It just screws out. Screw in a piece of 1/2 inch pipe with a
5/8 hose attached. Refill and check the hose end. I usually get some bigger
chunk out this way. You will see what I mean when you pull the installed
valve out.

Insulating the pipes is easy and pretty cheap. Benefit is ??? for 6-7 feet.
Insulating the water heater might be a waste of time depending on the
ambient temp of its location. If the heater is subject to outside temps then
yes. It would help some. The top and upper 1/2 of the tank is all that is
needed to be insulated. Careful if you have an gas heater.

You might consider raising the thermostats up 10-15 degrees. Them bumps on
the outside of the tank are where they are located. Careful there is 240v
inside there. I set my electric heaters, top element 5 degrees less than
the bottom one.

Water heater work on temp rise. So the colder the incoming water the longer
it takes to raise the water temp. Winter the ground is colder so the water
takes longer to heat.

A long time ago I had a house with 5 people, and a 30 gallon water heater,
gas. I limited the kids to 10 minutes and staggered them over a couple of
hours. The youngest liked baths so he got 15 minutes. Actually he used less
hot water than his siblings. I had the water heater set on max from the
second day we lived in the place. I also installed a low flow shower head
for the children. We always had to wait for the dinner dishes to run when
wifey went to bed. I showered before bed and the wife was a morning person.
It worked, and yes there were times when we just had to wait a few minutes.

"DA" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

Winter is just around the corner, and I'm trying to find a way to make my
water heater perform better than it did last year.

My family of four has done fine for 20 yrs without any problems so perhaps
it's a use issue.
The low-flow shower heads help as does a diverter on each of the sinks.
This allows you
to set your water temp on the faucts and then you flip a lever which stops
the water flow
right at the spigot. That way you don't have to let the water keep running
while you shave
or wash dishes, etc. I have found them hard to find of late, but it looks
like an aerator with
a 'U' shaped wire lever stick out the one side. I have seen them on
specialty sites on-line.

On 7-Oct-2005, wrote:

So, the water is back to ambient temp after running through the first
few feet of pipe?

No the water will return to ambient temp if it sits in the pipe for a
while.


And it isn't going to make hot water show up any faster,

It will reduce by the amount of time taken to empty the pipe that
has been insulated. That isn't great, but the amount of water wasted
while folks wait for hot water represents a significant fraction of
the total amount of water wasted in homes.

Mike

DA wrote:
Hello everyone,

Winter is just around the corner, and I'm trying to find a way to
make my water heater perform better than it did last year.

First off, it seems a bit too small for my family (50 gallon for 4
people). However, in addition to that I have hot water pipes coming
out of the heater to the bathroom and the kitchen, and I'd say there
is at least 6-7 feet of bare copper pipes (before they enter the
walls) in this first floor closet. The closet gets cold in winter.
Not too much, but I think 60F degrees is probably what it stays at
for couple of months. I wonder if it adds to our poor heater
performance? Do you think water can loose much temperature going
through 6-7 feet of copper pipes? What materials one uses to
insulate the pipes?

It is not costing you much heat. Unless you use hot water through that
pipe often, it is going to loose all the excess heat anyway, it might take a
few hours rather than 10 minutes, but the end result will be the same.
Don't feel too bad however as much of that heat will find it's way back into
your home.

And, lastly, should the heater itself be wrapped
into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

Only if it is a very old heater. All the ones made in recent years are
insulated to start with. While additional insulation will help, it will not
help that much. Again, that heat that it looses is lost into your home, so
if you stop it, then your furnace will just need to take up the slack.
During the summer the reverse is true the heat it gives off must be removed
by the A/C costing your more then. Still not likely all that much.



Thanks for all your feedback and ideas!

Cheers!
D.
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--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

wrote:

"If you want to improve the efficiency of the water heater, then you
should insulate these pipes. More than that much would not be useful,
as the heat from the water heater is lost in the first few feet of
copper pipe. That will also reduce by a couple of seconds how long
you wait for hot water when you turn on the tap. "

So, the water is back to ambient temp after running through the first
few feet of pipe?

In a short while, with no flow... 20' of 3/4" pipe with C = 3.8 lb of water
and 4 ft^2 of surface might have a thermal conductance G = 1.5x4 = 6 Btu/h-F,
so the time constant RC = C/G = 0.63 hours, ie the water would cool from 120
to about 70+(120-70)e^-1/0.63 = 80 F in 1 hour in a 70 F room.

If that were the case, you'd never get hot water.

True, if there were no flow :-)

And it isn't going to make hot water show up any faster, except in the
case where it's reused within a reasonably short period, before it
cools off again. But, for example, first thing in the morning, it's
still going to take just about the same amount of time to get hot water
with or without insulation.

The important energy savings and faster hot water might come because
the water heater keeps the first few feet of pipe warm by warm water
convection, even with no hot water usage. You might feel the pipe in
the morning, before any usage, and keep insulating it until the end
of the pipe emerging from the insulation no longer feels warm.

Nick

you didn't mention if the WH is gas or electric. If electric, you may have
one of the heating elements (there are two)
that is failed or so mineral coated that it very inefficient. I've had a
number of them where the top element is OK and the bottom one is dead, and
for small consumption, you can't even tell there's a problem.
Bill

"DA" wrote in message
...
Hello everyone,

Winter is just around the corner, and I'm trying to find a way to make my
water heater perform better than it did last year.

First off, it seems a bit too small for my family (50 gallon for 4
people). However, in addition to that I have hot water pipes coming out of
the heater to the bathroom and the kitchen, and I'd say there is at least
6-7 feet of bare copper pipes (before they enter the walls) in this first
floor closet. The closet gets cold in winter. Not too much, but I think
60F degrees is probably what it stays at for couple of months. I wonder if
it adds to our poor heater performance? Do you think water can loose much
temperature going through 6-7 feet of copper pipes? What materials one
uses to insulate the pipes? And, lastly, should the heater itself be
wrapped into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

Thanks for all your feedback and ideas!

Cheers!
D.
-------------------------------------


##-----------------------------------------------##
Delivered via http://www.equity-loan.info
Your home, its financing and everything about it
no-spam access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 59533 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"DA" wrote in message

there is at least
6-7 feet of bare copper pipes (before they enter the walls) in this first
floor closet. The closet gets cold in winter. Not too much, but I think
60F degrees is probably what it stays at for couple of months. I wonder if
it adds to our poor heater performance?

The water in the pipes will cool, but the heat it gives off help heat the
closet. It is not a "loss", but used as part of the home heating.

Ed is exactly right -- but you might have an electric hot water heater
and a 90% eff gas furnace so you want to heat with your furnace where
practical.


Do you think water can loose much
temperature going through 6-7 feet of copper pipes?

No, not much t all.

You can figure this sort of question out. Let the ambient temperature
be 60 degrees F, a hot water temperature of 130 degrees. That means
you lose 48 Btu/ft-hr of 3/4" bare copper. 7 feet of pipe would be 336
Btu/hr. If you ran your hot water for 1 hour per day that would be
122724 Btu/yr or about as much energy as is in a gallon of gasoline per
year tops (unless this section of pipe stays hot while you are not
running the hot water at the tap).



What materials one
uses to insulate the pipes?

You can buy insulation material for pipes at any home improvement store.


You can buy special pipe insulation with a slit that fits nicely over
the pipe -- but any insulating material will do. Just be sure that the
insulation doesn't allow free air flow around the pipe.

And, lastly, should the heater itself be
wrapped into some sort of a thermal insulation blanket to improve its
performance?

Older heaters are helped a lot. Newer heaters have pretty good insulation.

An insulation blanket always helps -- but do a back-of-the-napkin
calculation to determine if it is worth your time and it probably isn't
on a gas heater.

Hope this helps,
William

You can figure this sort of question out. Let the ambient temperature
be 60 degrees F, a hot water temperature of 130 degrees. That means
you lose 48 Btu/ft-hr of 3/4" bare copper. 7 feet of pipe would be 336
Btu/hr. If you ran your hot water for 1 hour per day that would be
122724 Btu/yr or about as much energy as is in a gallon of gasoline per
year tops (unless this section of pipe stays hot while you are not
running the hot water at the tap).

I would think the "bottom line" is that pipe insulation doesn't make all
that much difference. It reduces the time needed to get hot water,
reduces the indidental heating of non-living areas. In the summer, it
might reduce slightly the load on the air conditioner. You insulate if it's
easy but don't get concerned if you can't.

Folks should know that insulation by itself will NOT keep even a hot water
pipe from freezing if you aren't drawing water and the pipes pass through an
un-conditioned area.