In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote:
: What are the rules about propane tank location
: (distance from the house, etc). Are these national
: rules or do they vary with individual states?

: --
: Jonathan Grobe Books
: Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
: http://www.grobebooks.com

Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place
it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house.
If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure
they are pointing somewhere else...

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:37:36 +0000 (UTC), wrote:


In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote:
: What are the rules about propane tank location
: (distance from the house, etc). Are these national
: rules or do they vary with individual states?

Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place
it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house.
If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure
they are pointing somewhere else...

Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling
liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive...
and something to avoid being near...

Dave Hinz

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:37:36 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:


In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote:
: What are the rules about propane tank location
: (distance from the house, etc). Are these national
: rules or do they vary with individual states?

Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place
it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house.
If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure
they are pointing somewhere else...

Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling
liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive...
and something to avoid being near...

We got lucky and avoided at least *THAT* particular problem when the
house burned down a couple years ago. Fire guys were *REAL* interested
in knowing where the (recently topped off in preparation for the
oncoming winter) 300+ gallon propane tank was when they first got here,
and once located, kept a hose on it for the duration. Stuff further from
the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source
of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the
fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such
from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or
more before they actually managed to arrive. (Absolutely no intent to
slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very
firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the
nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car -
"Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action"
firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.)

The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was
sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed
with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but
fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two
vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else
that burned in the house.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:05:08 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling
liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive...
and something to avoid being near...

We got lucky and avoided at least *THAT* particular problem when the
house burned down a couple years ago. Fire guys were *REAL* interested
in knowing where the (recently topped off in preparation for the
oncoming winter) 300+ gallon propane tank was when they first got here,
and once located, kept a hose on it for the duration.

Yep. There's a vent on the top (round pipe looking thing a few inches
high) that is _supposed to_ open when the tank pressure is high. We had
a fire where that was venting, and near the fire, of course it was a
hella-big torch. That was fine, really, we didn't mind. Kept a hose on
the tank, so the surface stayed wet (below boiling point of water on the
outside = not too hot on the inside). We weren't nervous until the
venting stopped, because there's no way to know if it was just empty (it
was), or if the vent had melted shut or something. There was some
pucker-factor at that one.

Stuff further from
the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source
of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the
fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such
from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or
more before they actually managed to arrive.

Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say
"blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the
exposures.

(Absolutely no intent to
slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very
firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the
nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car -

Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like,
well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water.

"Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action"
firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.)

Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though.

The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was
sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed
with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but
fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two
vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else
that burned in the house.

Saved the horses? Fantastic. That was another fire recently, at a
horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40
or 50 of 'em. Not a good ride to that fire, let me tell you. But, they
all got out. Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the
county for a bit, but there ya go.

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:05:08 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Ayup. I've seen video of a propane tank doing the BLEVE (boiling
liquid, expanding vapor explosion) trick, and it's impressive...
and something to avoid being near...

We got lucky and avoided at least *THAT* particular problem when the
house burned down a couple years ago. Fire guys were *REAL* interested
in knowing where the (recently topped off in preparation for the
oncoming winter) 300+ gallon propane tank was when they first got here,
and once located, kept a hose on it for the duration.

Yep. There's a vent on the top (round pipe looking thing a few inches
high) that is _supposed to_ open when the tank pressure is high. We had
a fire where that was venting, and near the fire, of course it was a
hella-big torch. That was fine, really, we didn't mind. Kept a hose on
the tank, so the surface stayed wet (below boiling point of water on the
outside = not too hot on the inside). We weren't nervous until the
venting stopped, because there's no way to know if it was just empty (it
was), or if the vent had melted shut or something. There was some
pucker-factor at that one.

Stuff further from
the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source
of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the
fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such
from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or
more before they actually managed to arrive.

Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say
"blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the
exposures.

(Absolutely no intent to
slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very
firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the
nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car -

Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like,
well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water.

"Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action"
firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.)

Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though.

The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was
sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed
with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but
fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two
vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else
that burned in the house.

Saved the horses? Fantastic. That was another fire recently, at a
horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40
or 50 of 'em. Not a good ride to that fire, let me tell you. But, they
all got out. Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the
county for a bit, but there ya go.

why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot in
that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway?

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:

why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot in
that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway?

Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then?

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer
wrote:

why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot
in
that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway?

Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then?

wouldn't you smell it?

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Stuff further from
the house than the tank was bursting into flames with no visible source
of ignition just because of the radiant heat from the fire - most of the
fire-crew effort went to keeping the surrounding vegetation and such
from catching - The house was already a total write-off 20 minutes or
more before they actually managed to arrive.

Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say
"blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the
exposures.

Gawd, *THAT* had to be a nightmare...

(Absolutely no intent to
slam the FD for poor response time should be imagined - I have a very
firm grasp on the reality that it's a 30 minute drive from here to the
nearest fire station when I "leadfoot" it in my little semi-sports car -

Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like,
well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water.

Hmmm... Yeah, I guess that would be an accurate description


"Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action"
firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.)

Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though.

Believe me... I know from experience *EXACTLY* how long a time it is
when you're the one on the calling end - Without going into the math
involved to get a multi-digits-to-the-right-of-the-decimal number,
"For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation

The two portable propane tanks hooked up under the grill that was
sitting on the deck vented with a roar like a ****ed off dragon, backed
with what I'd estimate to be a 30+ foot long tounge of flame, but
fortunately they didn't BLEVE, or I imagine we'd have lost the other two
vehicles and probably a couple of the horses along with everything else
that burned in the house.

Saved the horses? Fantastic.

The only way the horses were ever in danger was if the surroundings
caught, or something "turned violent" (exploding propane tanks, ammo,
etc) in the fire. Otherwise, they were far enough away that they were
all safe. When the ammo started cooking off, the closet that it was
stored in had already fallen into the basement, so that was pretty much
a non-issue. Amazingly enough, the largest hazard (aside from the fire
itself) was the exploding canned goods - You'd hear a weird KER-THWUMP!,
and next thing you knew, there was this jagged hunk of metal bouncing
past you at high speed! Two years later, I'm *STILL* finding tin-can
shrapnel scattered around the property.

That was another fire recently, at a
horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40
or 50 of 'em.

As a lifelong horseman (frequently bunking in quarters attached to/part
of the barn), I know all about the terror of barn fires. Throw the doors
open, prod the stock with anything that will spook them out and keep
them there, be it a rope, a shovel, or a pitchfork, and then hope like
hell you can close things up and/or guard the approaches well enough to
keep them from running back in to what they consider a place of safety.
And then cry for the ones you couldn't get/keep out.

Not a good ride to that fire, let me tell you. But, they
all got out.

That's good to hear, at least!

Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the
county for a bit, but there ya go.

I'd *MUCH* rather be scrounging for a chunk of fenced land to park 'em
on for a while than burying them...

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say
"blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the
exposures.


The joke in southern Louisiana for the local volunteer fire department was,
"They always get there in time to save the foundation and fireplace."

Steve

In article 4u1%e.84538$DW1.48492@fed1read06,
"SteveB" wrote:

Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say
"blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the
exposures.


The joke in southern Louisiana for the local volunteer fire department was,
"They always get there in time to save the foundation and fireplace."

Methinks that qualifies as what they call "gallows humor", no?

Basically, that's when the FD got here for ours - But as I said, I can't
blame them. They had 20 miles to travel, with most of the last 4 being
steep uphills, and the last 2 of that switchback gravel. I do the trip
in my wannabe-sports-car in about half an hour when I drive with a heavy
foot and no traffic. I am, to be perfectly honest, quite impressed that
the first truck was able to get here in "only" 45 minutes. An hour or
longer for first ground-based response wouldn't have surprised me even a
little bit.

Air response, on the other hand, was fairly quick, since we've got the
tanker base about 8 minutes away by air. CDF Air-attack was circling
overhead about 15-20 minutes after the initial call, with chatter on the
scanner telling me that they had a borate bomber in the air and orbiting
the tanker base, two more on the strip with engines hot and waiting for
the "go" with an ETA of 10 minutes, the crew for a fourth prepping, a
dozer crew on standby, plus two choppers with dip-buckets (Big
advantage: the lake that more-or-less surrounds us is mighty
conveniently located for firefighting purposes if you've got aircraft
that can dip out of it) en-route from Grass Valley with an ETA of 12
minutes - Since the area is definite "wilderness interface", they went
full response right from jump in an effort to keep it from getting off
the property. Thankfully, it worked. Before all was said and done, over
15 ground units and 8 aircraft, plus I-don't-even-know-how-many bodies
got involved in stomping this one out.

Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California
wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time
they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's
only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock
the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway,
with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on
the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were
burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the
second and third trucks rolled in. By then, most of the house had fallen
into the foundation, turning the whole mess into a pretty good rendition
of the ultimate barbecue pit - Trying to get any closer than about 50
feet was a good way to remove any facial hair you might have been
wearing...

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

The weak spot on a tank is the long seam, not the circ seam for the
heads. A BLEVE will only happen when the pressure rise is so high as
to not allow the relief valve to vent properly, the long seam rips
open so fast that is runs the length the the tank due to the rising
pressure in the tank. Once the long seam hits the circ seam it will
run around the circ. If the pressure is still rising due to the high
heat imput the heads will come off. If the pressure rise has slowed
down due to the long seam being opened, no heads will fly off.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:37:36 +0000 (UTC), wrote:



In misc.rural Jonathan Grobe wrote:
: What are the rules about propane tank location
: (distance from the house, etc). Are these national
: rules or do they vary with individual states?

: --
: Jonathan Grobe Books
: Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
: http://www.grobebooks.com

Orientation is probably the most critical - you can't place
it such that the ends of the tank are aimed at your house.
If it explodes, the ends shoot out so you want to make sure
they are pointing somewhere else...

Many jurisdictions allow buired tanks. They have a special coating to
reduce corrosion and have anodes on the to corode first. Over 50% of
all new tank installations in the US are now buired. See the web
sites for tank manufacturers such as American Tank or Trinity.


On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:24:41 -0700, "Charles Spitzer"
wrote:


"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer
wrote:

why don't more places allow burying the tanks? it shouldn't get very hot
in
that case, and who wants to look at a propane tank anyway?

Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then?

wouldn't you smell it?

In article , (Don
Bruder) says...

Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California
wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time
they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's
only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock
the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway,
with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on
the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were
burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the
second and third trucks rolled in. By then, most of the house had fallen
into the foundation, turning the whole mess into a pretty good rendition
of the ultimate barbecue pit - Trying to get any closer than about 50
feet was a good way to remove any facial hair you might have been
wearing...

How did it start?

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:24:41 -0700, Charles Spitzer wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer
wrote:

why don't more places allow burying the tanks?

Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then?

wouldn't you smell it?

Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just
being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they
are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel
tanks.

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:48:50 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Been there, done that. Don't like it. One of our house fires started
in an unattended house on a day with 40 MPH winds. Can you say
"blowtorch"? The only thing we could do, as you say, was protect the
exposures.

Gawd, *THAT* had to be a nightmare...

Well, it was pretty exciting when one neighbor came over and said "His
car is gone, but I think his parents used to live there with him..."
For a while, we didn't know if we'd have a recovery situation, or just
the fire. Turned out they had moved out years before (he didn't talk to
anyone much).

Whic means 45 minutes by tanker, or more. Those things drive like,
well, like things that are really big, slow, and filled with water.

Hmmm... Yeah, I guess that would be an accurate description

Did I mention top-heavy?

"Only" 45 minutes from the call to 911 to seeing a "ready-for-action"
firetruck pull onto the property is doing *EXTREMELY* well indeed.)

Long time when you're on the calling end of the phone, though.

Believe me... I know from experience *EXACTLY* how long a time it is
when you're the one on the calling end - Without going into the math
involved to get a multi-digits-to-the-right-of-the-decimal number,
"For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation

Is that metric, or imperial "for-freaking-ever", though? These details
are important. FWIW, the ride there seems pretty damn long too.

Saved the horses? Fantastic.

The only way the horses were ever in danger was if the surroundings
caught, or something "turned violent" (exploding propane tanks, ammo,
etc) in the fire. Otherwise, they were far enough away that they were
all safe.

I've been told that horses, when they see a dangerous situation, want
to run "home". That's bad if "home" is the barn that's on fire.

When the ammo started cooking off, the closet that it was
stored in had already fallen into the basement, so that was pretty much
a non-issue. Amazingly enough, the largest hazard (aside from the fire
itself) was the exploding canned goods - You'd hear a weird KER-THWUMP!,

oh, yeah. You bet. Also all those spray-paint cans in your basement
shop? Nice popping. Ammo sounds like firecrackers or popcorn.
Underwhelming.

and next thing you knew, there was this jagged hunk of metal bouncing
past you at high speed! Two years later, I'm *STILL* finding tin-can
shrapnel scattered around the property.

That'll make an impression on you...

That was another fire recently, at a
horse barn. The kind of place where people board their horses, maybe 40
or 50 of 'em.

As a lifelong horseman (frequently bunking in quarters attached to/part
of the barn), I know all about the terror of barn fires. Throw the doors
open, prod the stock with anything that will spook them out and keep
them there, be it a rope, a shovel, or a pitchfork, and then hope like
hell you can close things up and/or guard the approaches well enough to
keep them from running back in to what they consider a place of safety.

Exactly.

And then cry for the ones you couldn't get/keep out.

Haven't had to deal with that, yet. Been to one where the person didn't
get out of the barn, though. 15 years later, I can still picture it.
not good.

Barn was a total loss, and housing was a bit tight in the
county for a bit, but there ya go.

I'd *MUCH* rather be scrounging for a chunk of fenced land to park 'em
on for a while than burying them...

Yup.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:31:04 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article 4u1%e.84538$DW1.48492@fed1read06,
"SteveB" wrote:

The joke in southern Louisiana for the local volunteer fire department was,
"They always get there in time to save the foundation and fireplace."

Methinks that qualifies as what they call "gallows humor", no?

Yup. Careful with that around here. You'll get angry emails.

Air response, on the other hand, was fairly quick, since we've got the
tanker base about 8 minutes away by air.

Ah, we don't have that option. Although, the medical helicopters are
about 30 minutes out either direction which is nice. Again, that's a
LONG 30 minutes.

Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California
wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time
they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's
only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock
the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway,
with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on
the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were
burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the
second and third trucks rolled in.

Yeah, sounds like it wouldn't have mattered anyway. You might be
surprised how good a "totalled" structure can look.

Dave

On 30 Sep 2005 14:34:10 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:


Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just
being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they
are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel
tanks.

Tanks designed for burial are coated with a very thick, probably half
inch, coating of asphalt. Such coated tanks do not rust. Burying
propane tanks has been around at least since I was a kid, for I recall
seeing them. I imagine they have this coating thing pretty well
figured out by now.

FWIW, they recently dug up some est 80 year old asphalted gas tanks
from an abandoned gas station across the street. The tanks were in
perfect condition and still contained some probably 30 year old
gasoline. No rust inside or out. It seemed such a shame to cut them
up and haul them away.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:10:25 -0400, wrote:

The weak spot on a tank is the long seam, not the circ seam for the
heads. A BLEVE will only happen when the pressure rise is so high as
to not allow the relief valve to vent properly, the long seam rips
open so fast that is runs the length the the tank due to the rising
pressure in the tank. Once the long seam hits the circ seam it will
run around the circ. If the pressure is still rising due to the high
heat imput the heads will come off. If the pressure rise has slowed
down due to the long seam being opened, no heads will fly off.

This is correct. The head is the strongest part, as is the weld. I've
seen the aftermath of two BLEVEs and seen many more photos. Most
opened up at the seam as you say, but one opened away from the seam.
In that case, it looked like the fire had been concentrated in that
area, undoubtedly weakening the metal.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:24:41 -0700, Charles Spitzer
wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:19:07 -0700, Charles Spitzer
wrote:

why don't more places allow burying the tanks?

Well, how would you know when it's rusted/leaking then?

wouldn't you smell it?

Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just
being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they
are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel
tanks.

as others have said, they coat them. i buried mine, and was just wondering
why they didn't do this a lot more. i expect the empty tank costs more, but
i didn't compare prices when i ordered mine. it certainly was more expensive
for permits and time consuming to get the fire dept to come out to inspect
and map it for their records.

all you can see is the metal cap over the valves, which are below ground
level. i saved in that i didn't have to build a wall around it to hide it,
so the cost was pretty much a wash i'd expect.

In article t,
Larry Caldwell wrote:

In article , (Don
Bruder) says...

Unfortunately, keeping it from turning into a full-scale California
wildfire was the only thing they had any prayer of doing by the time
they were able to get bodies on-scene. The house was pretty much "It's
only still standing 'cause the wind hasn't blown hard enough to knock
the last of it over yet" when the first truck rolled up the driveway,
with some of the closer trees starting to catch. They put the hose on
the propane tank, and went to work knocking out the trees that were
burning, and didn't turn their attention to the house proper until the
second and third trucks rolled in. By then, most of the house had fallen
into the foundation, turning the whole mess into a pretty good rendition
of the ultimate barbecue pit - Trying to get any closer than about 50
feet was a good way to remove any facial hair you might have been
wearing...

How did it start?

At first, the (electric) hot water heater was suspectd, but once they
got that out of the pit and into the lab for analysis, the verdict came
back saying that other than fire damage, it appeared to be in perfect
working order, with no signs of shorting or other possible fire source.

Second "most popular" suspect: Brand new (Less than 6 weeks) HVAC
system, but that was basically untestable - It pretty much turned into a
melted puddle of aluminum and copper with embedded "other widgets" in
the bottom of an almost unrecognizably warped and twisted steel box.

Verbiage in the "final determination" box of the report: unknown
cause/accidental.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:30:01 -0400, Neon John wrote:
On 30 Sep 2005 14:34:10 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:


Maybe, but direct soil contact will rust a tank a lot faster than just
being out in the atmosphere. And, braindead lawmakers being what they
are, probably can't differentiate between this fuel and other fuel
tanks.

Tanks designed for burial are coated with a very thick, probably half
inch, coating of asphalt. Such coated tanks do not rust.

Oh, I agree, but that's not direct soil contact then. You wouldn't want
to bury a stanard propane tank, though.

Burying
propane tanks has been around at least since I was a kid, for I recall
seeing them. I imagine they have this coating thing pretty well
figured out by now.

Asphalt goes back a few thousand years, so probably, yup.

FWIW, they recently dug up some est 80 year old asphalted gas tanks
from an abandoned gas station across the street. The tanks were in
perfect condition and still contained some probably 30 year old
gasoline. No rust inside or out. It seemed such a shame to cut them
up and haul them away.

And yet, no doubt, by some law it was required, am I right? I mean, why
actually test for real problems when you can just pass sweeping
generalizations and all that?

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

Well, it was pretty exciting when one neighbor came over and said "His
car is gone, but I think his parents used to live there with him..."
For a while, we didn't know if we'd have a recovery situation, or just
the fire. Turned out they had moved out years before (he didn't talk to
anyone much).

Ugh... We were in the same situation here - After calling 911, I went
back down to the house (I live in an apartment hooked to a separate
garage/shop several hundred feet away from the house) and managed to
call two of the three dogs to the master bedroom sliding doors and drag
them out, but couldn't get a visual or audible confirmation that the
house was clear. Third dog didn't answer to calls, and the smoke layer
was low enough that I couldn't get an angle to see whether there was
anybody in the bed. I was trying to get a visual when the hallway
ceiling started falling in flaming chunks and fire started blasting
through the bedroom door. Being dressed in a nothing but a pair of
fruit-of-the-looms and bluejeans, I decided that discretion was probably
the better part of valor, slid the door shut with a muttered "I hope
they're all out...", and dragged the dogs further away.

It was nervous when the first truck got here, since I couldn't give a
definite "somebody/nobody inside" response. It wasn't until about 10-15
minutes after the first truck arrived that I was finally able to raise
the owner by cell-phone - Not for lack of trying - Kept getting that
"The customer you have dialed is unavailable" message. Once things got
calmer, I found out why... He was in the cell-phone place at the mall
buying a new one, getting his old one turned off, and the new one
programmed. His very first incoming call on that phone was me with the
news that the house was burning - Helluva "phone-warming gift". Once I
raised him, was able to verify that nobody was supposed to be in the
house other than the dogs, since he, his wife, her father, and their
weekend houseguest were all in the next city over. For some strange
reason, the boys in yellow suddenly seemed a *WHOLE LOT* happier when
that news was relayed. I can't possibly imagine why...

Believe me... I know from experience *EXACTLY* how long a time it is
when you're the one on the calling end - Without going into the math
involved to get a multi-digits-to-the-right-of-the-decimal number,
"For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation

Is that metric, or imperial "for-freaking-ever", though?

Well, according to my understanding, it's similar to "forty below" -
It's one of those special values they call a "dimensionless number" (or,
if you're a Fred Pohl fan, a "Gosh number" - See his "Annals of the
Heechee" series for a full discussion) - You can say the number, and it
doesn't matter what scale you use: It's all the same. 40 below
Farenheit, 40 below Celsius - Same thing.

These details
are important. FWIW, the ride there seems pretty damn long too.

I don't doubt that even a little - "Am I gonna buy it this time? Is Joe
over there across the aisle? How many dead bodies are we going to have
to pull out of this one", and similar things have to be going through
your mind on a constant loop for the whole ride.

Saved the horses? Fantastic.

The only way the horses were ever in danger was if the surroundings
caught, or something "turned violent" (exploding propane tanks, ammo,
etc) in the fire. Otherwise, they were far enough away that they were
all safe.

I've been told that horses, when they see a dangerous situation, want
to run "home". That's bad if "home" is the barn that's on fire.

That's more than an "I've been told" - It's absolute fact. Horse
response to a threat of any kind that can be run away from is "Go to
safety, at high speed." The downside of that is that it's completely
predictable what's going to happen in a barn fi You're going to find
the horse that managed to get back in dead in his/her own usual stall -
A place where it's "safe" according to their little pea-brains - even if
there are burning timbers falling into it.

When the ammo started cooking off, the closet that it was
stored in had already fallen into the basement, so that was pretty much
a non-issue. Amazingly enough, the largest hazard (aside from the fire
itself) was the exploding canned goods - You'd hear a weird KER-THWUMP!,

oh, yeah. You bet. Also all those spray-paint cans in your basement
shop? Nice popping. Ammo sounds like firecrackers or popcorn.
Underwhelming.

Yeah, the ammo (a mix totalling several hundred rounds of 9mm, .38,
..30-06, .22, and 12 gauge) was far less than impressive. Sounded about
like the usual popping and crackling of a typical campfire. The canned
stuff was *MUCH* more impressive, sounding a lot like mortar rounds
being launched. (and behaving much the same, overall)

and next thing you knew, there was this jagged hunk of metal bouncing
past you at high speed! Two years later, I'm *STILL* finding tin-can
shrapnel scattered around the property.

That'll make an impression on you...

In more ways than one!

As a lifelong horseman (frequently bunking in quarters attached to/part
of the barn), I know all about the terror of barn fires. Throw the doors
open, prod the stock with anything that will spook them out and keep
them there, be it a rope, a shovel, or a pitchfork, and then hope like
hell you can close things up and/or guard the approaches well enough to
keep them from running back in to what they consider a place of safety.

Exactly.

And then cry for the ones you couldn't get/keep out.

Haven't had to deal with that, yet. Been to one where the person didn't
get out of the barn, though. 15 years later, I can still picture it.
not good.

Being the misanthropic @$$hole I am, I'd be more inclined to have
nightmares/flashbacks/PTSD/whatever you want to call it over the horses
that didn't make it out than a human that didn't. But that's just my
(admittedly somewhat "bent") personality.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:51:52 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,

Once I
raised him, was able to verify that nobody was supposed to be in the
house other than the dogs, since he, his wife, her father, and their
weekend houseguest were all in the next city over. For some strange
reason, the boys in yellow suddenly seemed a *WHOLE LOT* happier when
that news was relayed.

Made their day, no doubt about that.

I can't possibly imagine why...

I have a theory or two

"For-freakin'-EVER!" is a perfectly reasonable approximation

Is that metric, or imperial "for-freaking-ever", though?

Well, according to my understanding, it's similar to "forty below" -

Grok that.

It's one of those special values they call a "dimensionless number" (or,
if you're a Fred Pohl fan, a "Gosh number" - See his "Annals of the
Heechee" series for a full discussion) - You can say the number, and it
doesn't matter what scale you use: It's all the same. 40 below
Farenheit, 40 below Celsius - Same thing.

So that's like "hella-big" then?

These details
are important. FWIW, the ride there seems pretty damn long too.

I don't doubt that even a little - "Am I gonna buy it this time?

I honestly don't think I've ever thought that on the way to a fire.
We're pretty careful not to take stupid chances. If there's nobody in
there to rescue, we're not going to risk lives to save a building.
Life first, _then_ property.

Is Joe
over there across the aisle? How many dead bodies are we going to have
to pull out of this one",

That, yes. "Hope they all got out".

and similar things have to be going through
your mind on a constant loop for the whole ride.

Not really, it's pretty busy getting all your stuff together,testing out
the air mask, getting the "nomex" (actually PBI these days) hood to fit
right around the mask, checking the guy next to you, getting radios
together and on and in that damn pocket on your sleeve where they don't
fit right, and so on. But once that's done and you're slowly warming in
the gear, then the ride gets long.

I've been told that horses, when they see a dangerous situation, want
to run "home". That's bad if "home" is the barn that's on fire.

That's more than an "I've been told" - It's absolute fact. Horse
response to a threat of any kind that can be run away from is "Go to
safety, at high speed." The downside of that is that it's completely
predictable what's going to happen in a barn fi You're going to find
the horse that managed to get back in dead in his/her own usual stall -
A place where it's "safe" according to their little pea-brains - even if
there are burning timbers falling into it.

For a smart animal, they can sure be dumb some times.

Haven't had to deal with that, yet. Been to one where the person didn't
get out of the barn, though. 15 years later, I can still picture it.
not good.

Being the misanthropic @$$hole I am, I'd be more inclined to have
nightmares/flashbacks/PTSD/whatever you want to call it over the horses
that didn't make it out than a human that didn't. But that's just my
(admittedly somewhat "bent") personality.

Well, I'm pretty...what's the word...gruff? But, that one still
bothered me for quite a while. For a couple years, if I'd singe some
hair or something the flashback to the scene was intense and detailed.
Only good thing about that whole deal is that the coronor's report
showed he died pretty much immediately, soon as he stood up and got a
lungs-ful of fire.

On 30 Sep 2005 17:27:44 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:


FWIW, they recently dug up some est 80 year old asphalted gas tanks
from an abandoned gas station across the street. The tanks were in
perfect condition and still contained some probably 30 year old
gasoline. No rust inside or out. It seemed such a shame to cut them
up and haul them away.

And yet, no doubt, by some law it was required, am I right? I mean, why
actually test for real problems when you can just pass sweeping
generalizations and all that?

As usual, EPA. They require disturbing tanks that are not leaking
just to say that they've been removed from the ground. If someone
decided that something just had to be done as a symbolic gesture,
cutting a hole in the tank and filling it with soil would inert the
tank and preclude any possibility of a cave-in. But that's not good
enough. According to the project manager when I asked this question,
the tank has to be dug up, cut up and disposed of and photos submitted
to the EPA. Madness.

Even if they've been leaking, it makes no sense to disturb something
that has been buried for decades and are not contaminating things.
That's what happened to the station adjacent to this one. The station
closed in the 60s. Several tanks had leaked but the fuel had not
migrated beyond a few feet from the tank as evidenced by core
drilling.

They still had to dig up the tanks AND the "contaminated" soil before
the property could be sold. It cost over $60k for that meaningless
endeavor.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

In article ,
Dave Hinz wrote:

It's one of those special values they call a "dimensionless number" (or,
if you're a Fred Pohl fan, a "Gosh number" - See his "Annals of the
Heechee" series for a full discussion) - You can say the number, and it
doesn't matter what scale you use: It's all the same. 40 below
Farenheit, 40 below Celsius - Same thing.

So that's like "hella-big" then?

Yeah, but just a smidgen longer


fit right, and so on. But once that's done and you're slowly warming in
the gear, then the ride gets long.

Never "been there", but I can easily imagine...

For a smart animal, they can sure be dumb some times.

If I had a nickel for every time I've either heard or said that...

Being the misanthropic @$$hole I am, I'd be more inclined to have
nightmares/flashbacks/PTSD/whatever you want to call it over the horses
that didn't make it out than a human that didn't. But that's just my
(admittedly somewhat "bent") personality.

Well, I'm pretty...what's the word...gruff? But, that one still
bothered me for quite a while. For a couple years, if I'd singe some
hair or something the flashback to the scene was intense and detailed.
Only good thing about that whole deal is that the coronor's report
showed he died pretty much immediately, soon as he stood up and got a
lungs-ful of fire.

Yeah, that's what we keep telling ourselves here over the dog that
didn't make it out. She was last seen sleeping under the dining room
table, and that area of the house was fully involved (as in flames
roaring out the broken dining room windows, the ceiling collapsing in
flaming chunks, and the roof above it starting to droop) by the time I
discovered the place was burning. Chances are high that her end was
pretty quick, if she even woke up at all. She was a little 10-15
pound-ish "Benji" style mutt. No trace of her was found during the
cleanup operation, but that doesn't surprise me a lot - a roughly 50 by
40 foot house and everything in it (and believe me, there was a
*****LOAD* of "everything" in it, including a complete woodshop setup,
brand new, still in the boxes 'cause they didn't have room to get it
unpacked and set up until after Dad and his stuff got moved into the new
house that was about 10 days from completion) was reduced to about six
of those 10 yard dumpsters worth of charred rubble.

On the "plus" side of the ledger, they didn't find out until the next
day when I recovered the fire-safe (which, by some miracle, landed "door
down" when it fell through the floor into the basement - slamming it
fuly shut from its usual "sitting there with the door cracked for easy
access" state) and the insurance policy was located, but they were
grandfathered in with a "full replacement cost" rider on the policy.
Which we found out a couple days later is no longer sold at all since
the Oakland firestorm, but since the policy was written prior to that,
and was paid up to date on the IC's books, it was by law still in effect
for them. They knew they had insurance, but they had completely
forgotten about the rider, so it came as at least a hint at a silver
lining in a rather large cloud.

As I sit here and type this, I've got another window open in the
background - That window is output from a homebrewed video system that's
creating "time-lapse" movies of the rebuilding that started back toward
the first of the month - By the calendar, three days short of being two
years to the day from when it burned.

As for progress, it's been fast, once things got started. From the
camera's viewpoint, it's currently a house that's had the siding and
shingles peeled off, and all the doors and windows torn out - All of the
exterior framing, along with much of the interior, plus the roof are in
place, with the outside walls sheathed and awaiting
inspection/insulation/siding/finishing, and the roof about 90% decked.
The plumber started building the drains and such yesterday, with an
electrician expected to show up sometime next week to start wiring,
closely followed by the HVAC guys. I imagine the roofers will be on
scene and hammering at about the same time the "inside" guys are doing
their thing next week.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.