OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c

I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need
to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits
to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to
do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel
in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...
OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c

RBM wrote:
I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need
to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits
to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to
do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel
in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c



All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the
GFCI outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.

If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240 volt,
it will require GFCI protection as well
"chester" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed
need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple
circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most
sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or
(8/3G) and small panel in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c



All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI
outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.

RBM wrote:
If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240 volt,
it will require GFCI protection as well

Yeah well, the heater will be hard-wired in, not on an outlet. I dont
think it will sepcificaly require GFCI, but I am not sure. I guess this
issue is that accessory structures may be limited in general to one
breaker off the main panel, which is the problem now, since I want a
240V heater (not 120) and so need either two lines/breakers, or a
sub-panel. I had orignially been considering a subpanel, but was steered
away from that idea by some people. I suppose code could be different
here (in seattle) but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.

I guess my choices are

-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two
circuits off the main panel?
-change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use
the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground)
to one dual 20A circuit
-change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I
spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house

dunno what sbest





All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI
outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.

If the heater is hard wired, it doesn't need GFCI protection (NEC)
"chester" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240
volt, it will require GFCI protection as well

Yeah well, the heater will be hard-wired in, not on an outlet. I dont
think it will sepcificaly require GFCI, but I am not sure. I guess this
issue is that accessory structures may be limited in general to one
breaker off the main panel, which is the problem now, since I want a 240V
heater (not 120) and so need either two lines/breakers, or a sub-panel. I
had orignially been considering a subpanel, but was steered away from that
idea by some people. I suppose code could be different here (in seattle)
but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.

I guess my choices are

-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two
circuits off the main panel?
-change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use
the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground) to
one dual 20A circuit
-change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I
spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house

dunno what sbest





All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the
GFCI outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit
downstream.

"chester" wrote in message
...
OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping of
the gfci


BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c

There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new
load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces of
equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that it
is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the
wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12
inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.

SQLit wrote:
"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...


I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping of
the gfci



Well, the circuitry to the shed running the outlets and lighting is to
be a dedicated 20a/120v circuit. the only other outlet outside the shed
on this circuit will be the one outside at the house, which will rarely
be in use for anything.

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c


There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new
load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces of
equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that it
is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

The distance is about 70-80 feet. Ther ewill be no flammable liquids
kept in the area. finished shed for storage/excercise, TV etc.

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the
wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

The wire I bought was UF cable 12/2 w/g

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12
inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.

I am going for 18-24, with PVC conduit.


Thanks for you input/questions. I was concerned with the two separate
circuits, but I found NEC code online, and found there are exceptions to
the rule of one circuit (including multi-branch) to an external
structure. One exception is when different voltages are supplied with
the two lines. This appears to apply to my situation. i feel a whole lot
more comfortable with two circuits, than running one multi-brnach
circuit with a 240V and 120V running off of it.

The rule is you can only run one circuit or feeder to a second
building. You will either be stuck with a sub panel (ground rods,
disconnect etc) or you could run a 20a 240v (3 wire + ground) circuit
and split it out into 2 multiwire 120v circuuits that also share the
250v load (hold your nose legal) and use GFCI receptacles in the shed.
That will limit you to about 11a per 120v circuit since your heater
pulls 8.3. If you just want a light and some occasional power tool use
that may be fine.
The heater and lights do not need to be GFCI but a direct bury cable
would have to be 24" down. Wire in conduit can be 18".
120v 15 or 20a GFCI protected circuits can be 12" down
Frost heaving might make all this moot anyway. You might need to be
below the frost line. I don't know much about things that happen below
freezing.

I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got
me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let
you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only
to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property,
"unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that
"Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different
voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control
of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much
more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than
using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same
circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess
it is always an option). Thanks.

I might be wrong but I do not think your application would permit two
feeders under the different voltages provision since the 120 volts is
derived as one leg of the 240 volts and thereby CAN be provided from one
feeder. Such a provision would apply if you were supplying 480 and 120
volts, where two panels would be required. You might be more comfortable
with two feeders but that is not the normal way it's done. I think the
primary consideration is that in a fire or other emergency it is possible
for emergency personnel to shut off all power to a structure by killing the
feed without having to figure out if there might be others.
Don Young
"chester" wrote in message
...
SQLit wrote:
"chester" wrote in message
...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...


I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my
garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping
of
the gfci



Well, the circuitry to the shed running the outlets and lighting is to be
a dedicated 20a/120v circuit. the only other outlet outside the shed on
this circuit will be the one outside at the house, which will rarely be in
use for anything.

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but
maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if
that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house
(buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe
in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the
buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c


There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new
load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces
of
equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that
it
is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

The distance is about 70-80 feet. Ther ewill be no flammable liquids kept
in the area. finished shed for storage/excercise, TV etc.

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the
wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

The wire I bought was UF cable 12/2 w/g

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12
inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.

I am going for 18-24, with PVC conduit.


Thanks for you input/questions. I was concerned with the two separate
circuits, but I found NEC code online, and found there are exceptions to
the rule of one circuit (including multi-branch) to an external structure.
One exception is when different voltages are supplied with the two lines.
This appears to apply to my situation. i feel a whole lot more comfortable
with two circuits, than running one multi-brnach circuit with a 240V and
120V running off of it.

Don Young wrote:
I might be wrong but I do not think your application would permit two
feeders under the different voltages provision since the 120 volts is
derived as one leg of the 240 volts and thereby CAN be provided from one
feeder. Such a provision would apply if you were supplying 480 and 120
volts, where two panels would be required. You might be more comfortable
with two feeders but that is not the normal way it's done. I think the
primary consideration is that in a fire or other emergency it is possible
for emergency personnel to shut off all power to a structure by killing the
feed without having to figure out if there might be others.
Don Young

So is it legit to run a multiwire off of dual 20A, and run the outlets
off of hot neutral, and run the 240V off of both hots? I mean, I can do
that easily, with the current wiring. I just would think two circuits
would be better/safer. But obviouosly NEC has its reasons. However, I
cant help but wonder why there would be exceptions for higher voltage
but not 120 and 240 circuits. For that You would have to turn off two
circuits as well. ?

wrote:

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:50:47 -0700, gk wrote:


Don Young wrote:

I might be wrong but I do not think your application would permit two
feeders under the different voltages provision since the 120 volts is
derived as one leg of the 240 volts and thereby CAN be provided from one
feeder. Such a provision would apply if you were supplying 480 and 120
volts, where two panels would be required. You might be more comfortable
with two feeders but that is not the normal way it's done. I think the
primary consideration is that in a fire or other emergency it is possible
for emergency personnel to shut off all power to a structure by killing the
feed without having to figure out if there might be others.
Don Young

So is it legit to run a multiwire off of dual 20A, and run the outlets
off of hot neutral, and run the 240V off of both hots? I mean, I can do
that easily, with the current wiring. I just would think two circuits
would be better/safer. But obviouosly NEC has its reasons. However, I
cant help but wonder why there would be exceptions for higher voltage
but not 120 and 240 circuits. For that You would have to turn off two
circuits as well. ?


The multiwire circuit can be shut down with a double pole switch. The
thing that makes this legal is using a double pole breaker in the
panel. (exception 2) Then you can feed line to line and line to
neutral circuiits from the same circuit.


So I just want to be clear: I can use the two hots from a (20A 3
conductor w/g) multiwire circuit to run the 240V heater, and one of the
hots, and the neutral, to run the 120V. True? If this is safe, and
legal, I will just do this. I dont expect to be having any high draw
devices in the shed, except for an occasional power tool. Thanks for you
help and advice.

210,4(C) Line-to-Neutral Loads. Multiwire branch circuits shall supply
only line-to-neutral loads.

Exception No. 2: Where all ungrounded conductors of the multiwire
branch circuit are opened simultaneously by the branch-circuit
overcurrent device.

SQLit wrote:

I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my garage.
Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping of
the gfci

And of course, you don't know what is going on in the house at the GFCI
outlet. If it's the bathroom outlet and somebody plugs in the hair
drier while you're using the garage door opener or something .... (see
the bathroom GFCI outlet thread)

wrote:

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:00:28 -0700, gk wrote:


So I just want to be clear: I can use the two hots from a (20A 3
conductor w/g) multiwire circuit to run the 240V heater, and one of the
hots, and the neutral, to run the 120V. True? If this is safe, and
legal, I will just do this. I dont expect to be having any high draw
devices in the shed, except for an occasional power tool. Thanks for you
help and advice.



You, you can actually split out both of the 120v "hots" to run 2 120v
circuits. Maybe put the lights on one and the GFCI receptacle on
another. As long as the GFCI string starts after the split it will
work OK.
You can feed regular receptacles after the GFCI and provide protection
if you connect to the "load" side.

As I said way up thread, you will have about 11a to work with if your
240v heat is 2000w. Of course in the summer you would have both
circuits at the whole 20a each.. You get a lot of bang for the buck
with a multiwire circuit and it even helps your voltage drop problems
if the 2 sides are somewhat balanced since the effective load is based
on 240v instead of two 120v loads. You don't see the return path
voltage drop since the neutral is only carrying the unbalanced load.

A multiwire circuit does only count as a single branch circuit so you
can skip most of the rules about sub panels. If you want to be on the
safe side you could drive a rod and connect it to the ground wire but
it is not required.
A double pole disconnect switch is still required and a good idea,
just so you can work on the wiring without thinking about someone
lighting you up from the house. It can just be the regular wall switch
type with 2 poles.
hmmm... well appreciate the input. I have done some reading on
multiwire, and I guess it wouldwork fine, but from my perspective, I
can't see it as being safer than just two circuits. There are some
inherent dangers with multiwire, evidently, and never having wired one,
I feel more comfortable with the two separate circuits. Guess I could do
a subpanel....

I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got
me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let
you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only
to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property,
"unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that
"Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different
voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control
of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much
more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than
using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same
circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess
it is always an option). Thanks.

I don't understand the resistance to running a 3-wire,
240V, 50A run to a sub-panel, and dropping a local ground.

Why put so much thought and effort into finding a safe,
legal way to do it wrong?

Goedjn wrote:
I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got
me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let
you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only
to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property,
"unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that
"Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different
voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control
of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much
more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than
using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same
circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess
it is always an option). Thanks.


I don't understand the resistance to running a 3-wire,
240V, 50A run to a sub-panel, and dropping a local ground.

Why put so much thought and effort into finding a safe,
legal way to do it wrong?


Well, mostly becasue I already spent $ on the 12/2 w/g wire. I will
waste $45, which isnt a big deal, and about 2-3 hours in labor.

I am stillthnking subpanel, but was thinking just a 30A, using 10/3 w/g.
I would think that would be sufficient for my needs, but I guess it
will not give me any expandabilityy. Waht wire for 50A? 8awg?

chester wrote:

RBM wrote:

I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel in the shed



"chester" wrote in message ...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c






Running two branch circuits between buildings is a violation of
"225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property
and under single management, each additional building or other structure
served that is on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall
be supplied by one feeder or branch circuit..." This provision of the
US NEC is meant to prevent elecctrical accident caused by multiple
sources of current to a buiding.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.RBM wrote:

I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed
need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple
circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most
sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or
(8/3G) and small panel in the shed



"chester" wrote in message
...


OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated
circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It
will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I
simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this
outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this
circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric
heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe
I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is
GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried
12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall
heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable
does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c



RBM wrote:

"chester" wrote in message ...

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help
c
RBM wrote:

I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel in the shed


"chester" wrote in message
...

All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI
outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.

RBM wrote:
If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240 volt,
it will require GFCI protection as well

Would you mind quoting chapter and verse for the code language you
believe requires GFCI protection for 240 volt cord and plug conneccted
devices?
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

gk wrote:


The rule is you can only run one circuit or feeder to a second
building. You will either be stuck with a sub panel (ground rods,
disconnect etc) or you could run a 20a 240v (3 wire + ground) circuit
and split it out into 2 multiwire 120v circuuits that also share the
250v load (hold your nose legal) and use GFCI receptacles in the shed.
That will limit you to about 11a per 120v circuit since your heater
pulls 8.3. If you just want a light and some occasional power tool use
that may be fine.
The heater and lights do not need to be GFCI but a direct bury cable
would have to be 24" down. Wire in conduit can be 18".
120v 15 or 20a GFCI protected circuits can be 12" down
Frost heaving might make all this moot anyway. You might need to be
below the frost line. I don't know much about things that happen below
freezing.


I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got
me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let
you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only
to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property,
"unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that
"Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different
voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control
of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much
more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than
using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same
circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess
it is always an option). Thanks.

I'm afraid it does not apply to you because the voltage to ground on
both circuits is 120 volts. You can run a multiwire branch circuit that
can carry both loads but that would still mean changing the line to
three wire plus ground.

If you were trying to avoid the installation of a grounding electrode
system at the garage it is a bad idea even were the code permits it. A
multiwire branch circuit is a single branch circuit for the purposes of
the code so a building supplied by one of those circuits does not
require a grounding electrode system at the building supplied.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

gk wrote:
Goedjn wrote:

I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You
got me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It
doesn't let you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that
there is only to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on
a property, "unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D)
states that "Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted
for different voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses
such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel
much more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications
than using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off
that same circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible,
but I guess it is always an option). Thanks.



I don't understand the resistance to running a 3-wire, 240V, 50A run
to a sub-panel, and dropping a local ground.

Why put so much thought and effort into finding a safe, legal way to
do it wrong?


Well, mostly becasue I already spent $ on the 12/2 w/g wire. I will
waste $45, which isnt a big deal, and about 2-3 hours in labor.

I am stillthnking subpanel, but was thinking just a 30A, using 10/3 w/g.
I would think that would be sufficient for my needs, but I guess it
will not give me any expandability. What wire for 50A? 8awg?

What is the total length of the circuit from the service equipment to
the garage? With that information I can find the voltage drop for the
circuit.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:35:15 -0500, "Don Young"
wrote:


I might be wrong but I do not think your application would permit two
feeders under the different voltages provision since the 120 volts is
derived as one leg of the 240 volts and thereby CAN be provided from one
feeder. Such a provision would apply if you were supplying 480 and 120
volts, where two panels would be required. You might be more comfortable
with two feeders but that is not the normal way it's done. I think the
primary consideration is that in a fire or other emergency it is possible
for emergency personnel to shut off all power to a structure by killing the
feed without having to figure out if there might be others.
Don Young



You are right but I would not consider it the most dangerous thing in
the world.



Yes but it is still a code violation and as one of the guys that crawls
into the buidings that all of you sane types have run out of I would ask
that you cut us a break and follow the code. That includes providing a
single disconnecting means that will deenergize the entire structure as
required by the code. If you really want to be nice to us then you
could mount the disconecting means outside the building.

"225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that
supply or pass through the building or structure.
225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of
the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through
the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For
the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be
permitted to be utilized."

--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

gk wrote:
Don Young wrote:

I might be wrong but I do not think your application would permit two
feeders under the different voltages provision since the 120 volts is
derived as one leg of the 240 volts and thereby CAN be provided from
one feeder. Such a provision would apply if you were supplying 480 and
120 volts, where two panels would be required. You might be more
comfortable with two feeders but that is not the normal way it's done.
I think the primary consideration is that in a fire or other emergency
it is possible for emergency personnel to shut off all power to a
structure by killing the feed without having to figure out if there
might be others.
Don Young


So is it legit to run a multiwire off of dual 20A, and run the outlets
off of hot neutral, and run the 240V off of both hots? I mean, I can do
that easily, with the current wiring. I just would think two circuits
would be better/safer. But obviouosly NEC has its reasons. However, I
cant help but wonder why there would be exceptions for higher voltage
but not 120 and 240 circuits. For that You would have to turn off two
circuits as well. ?


The higher voltages cannot be derived from the same circuit without
installing a transformer so the code language permits you to avoid that
bit of expense and complexity. The code language on which you are
relying is meant to allow separate circuits for such purposes as
powering a large item of equipment that requires a completely different
voltage such as 240 volt delta three phase with one phase grounded to
run a large refrigeration unit. You need the 240 / 3 phase power for
the refrigeration unit and you need 120 volt power for service
receptacles and lighting. Since 240 volt delta is much cheaper to
install as corner grounded delta the cost effective way to provide both
voltages is to run two circuits. Another example is a guard house for
an industrial complex that has 480/277 volt air conditioning and
lighting together with 208/120 volt power for receptacles. In short
those exceptions are only intended to be applied were a single branch
circuit or feeder cannot supply the needed power.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Well, mostly becasue I already spent $ on the 12/2 w/g wire. I will
waste $45, which isnt a big deal, and about 2-3 hours in labor.

I am stillthnking subpanel, but was thinking just a 30A, using 10/3 w/g.
I would think that would be sufficient for my needs, but I guess it
will not give me any expandabilityy. Waht wire for 50A? 8awg?


You can use much of the 12-AWG for wiring inside the shed,
so it's not a total loss. you said somewhere that the
run was around 70', so I think that 8AWG wire will
get you 40A (well, 46, but I don't think they make
45A breakers) Anyway, a 40-Amp 2-pole breaker gets
you a nominal 9600 watts, to divide up into
240V and 120V circuts however you want.

What is the total length of the circuit from the service equipment to
the garage? With that information I can find the voltage drop for the
circuit.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

it is approximatley 75 feet

gk wrote:


What is the total length of the circuit from the service equipment to
the garage? With that information I can find the voltage drop for the
circuit.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too
dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison


it is approximatley 75 feet


#6 AWG aluminum wire carrying fifty amperes would have a voltage drop of
2.1 %.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

Goedjn wrote

You can use much of the 12-AWG for wiring inside the shed,
so it's not a total loss. you said somewhere that the
run was around 70', so I think that 8AWG wire will
get you 40A (well, 46, but I don't think they make
45A breakers) Anyway, a 40-Amp 2-pole breaker gets
you a nominal 9600 watts, to divide up into
240V and 120V circuts however you want.

OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the subpanels
are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially cheaper 10/3
AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be sufficient:
2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such, gives me ~15A,
assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be sufficient, and a LOT
cheaper. Comments?
thx

wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:12:50 GMT, HorneTD
wrote:


Yes but it is still a code violation and as one of the guys that crawls
into the buidings that all of you sane types have run out of I would ask
that you cut us a break and follow the code. That includes providing a
single disconnecting means that will deenergize the entire structure as
required by the code. If you really want to be nice to us then you
could mount the disconecting means outside the building.


You were doing OK tom and we love the firemen but if you boys are
counting on a single disconnect you might get it trouble. It could be
SIX separate switches. They just have to be grouped.

225.33 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The disconnecting means for each supply permitted by
225.30 shall consist of not more than six switches or six circuit
breakers mounted in a single enclosure, in a group of separate
enclosures, or in or on a switchboard. There shall be no more than six
disconnects per supply grouped in any one location.


I am aware of that as my bread work is electrical. I was only asking
that if the opportunity presents please put a single disconnect outside.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:30:30 GMT, HorneTD
wrote:


The higher voltages cannot be derived from the same circuit without
installing a transformer so the code language permits you to avoid that
bit of expense and complexity. The code language on which you are
relying is meant to allow separate circuits for such purposes as
powering a large item of equipment that requires a completely different
voltage such as 240 volt delta three phase with one phase grounded to
run a large refrigeration unit. You need the 240 / 3 phase power for
the refrigeration unit and you need 120 volt power for service
receptacles and lighting. Since 240 volt delta is much cheaper to
install as corner grounded delta the cost effective way to provide both
voltages is to run two circuits. Another example is a guard house for
an industrial complex that has 480/277 volt air conditioning and
lighting together with 208/120 volt power for receptacles. In short
those exceptions are only intended to be applied were a single branch
circuit or feeder cannot supply the needed power.



That is not what the code says. In fact the handbook shows a combo
NEMA 5-15 and 6-15 device in the example.
(a duplex receptacle with a 120 and a 240 outlet)



Which example for which section?
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:56:31 -0700, chester
wrote:


OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the subpanels
are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially cheaper 10/3
AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be sufficient:
2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such, gives me ~15A,
assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be sufficient, and a LOT
cheaper. Comments?


Get a 2/4 disconnect and install one 15a 2 pole for the heat and two
20a single pole for the 120v loads. Put a GFCI receptacle for the
first receptacle on each circuit. You can put the lights on the
non-GFCI side. "Diversity" will keep you out of trouble.
Be sure to get the suplimental grounding bus, don't install the
bonding screw, drive a rod (goes to the grounding bus).



SO your thinking 30A would be sufficient to serve my needs? I mean, I
could add a 3000W device(s) and still be under...

I got a 100A sub-panel, the grounding bus, will NOT bond the neutral,
and will eventually add a gounding rod outside. But do I really need a
disconnect?

OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the subpanels
are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially cheaper 10/3
AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be sufficient:
2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such, gives me ~15A,
assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be sufficient, and a LOT
cheaper. Comments?
thx

What are you using the shed for, again? And what's the price
difference, and does that price difference change if you go
to conduit and/or individual strand?

30A is probably enough for a home workshop with one user,
and if you use conduit, you can always swap out the
feeder and breaker(s) if you decide to upgrade.

(Although if we were making stone soup, I'd observer that
having a few extra amps for an arc-welder is always, good,
and wouldn't it be nice to be able to put in AC and a
refridgerator?...)

--Goedjn

chester wrote:
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:56:31 -0700, chester
wrote:


OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the
subpanels are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially
cheaper 10/3 AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be
sufficient: 2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such,
gives me ~15A, assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be
sufficient, and a LOT cheaper. Comments?



Get a 2/4 disconnect and install one 15a 2 pole for the heat and two
20a single pole for the 120v loads. Put a GFCI receptacle for the
first receptacle on each circuit. You can put the lights on the
non-GFCI side. "Diversity" will keep you out of trouble.
Be sure to get the suplimental grounding bus, don't install the
bonding screw, drive a rod (goes to the grounding bus).



SO your thinking 30A would be sufficient to serve my needs? I mean, I
could add a 3000W device(s) and still be under...

I got a 100A sub-panel, the grounding bus, will NOT bond the neutral,
and will eventually add a gounding rod outside. But do I really need a
disconnect?

The US NEC requires a disconnecting means for each separate structure.

"225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that
supply or pass through the building or structure.
225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of
the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through
the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For
the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be
permitted to be utilized."

So as long as your panel is located "at a readily accessible location
nearest the point of entrance of the conductors" all you have to do is
install a double pole breaker with a breaker tie down kit and feed your
supply into the breakers terminals. That breaker is then the service
disconnecting means for the shed. The phrase "nearest the point of
entrance of the conductors" is generally held to mean not more than five
linear or ten wire feet from were the conductors enter the structure.

Since, IIRC, you are in Washington State you would be under the Uniform
Building Code (UBC). The UBC has no rules about whether the disconnect
is inside or outside of the structure. The Southern Building Code
required and exterior disconnecting means at one time.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:30:30 GMT, HorneTD
wrote:


The higher voltages cannot be derived from the same circuit without
installing a transformer so the code language permits you to avoid that
bit of expense and complexity. The code language on which you are
relying is meant to allow separate circuits for such purposes as
powering a large item of equipment that requires a completely different
voltage such as 240 volt delta three phase with one phase grounded to
run a large refrigeration unit. You need the 240 / 3 phase power for
the refrigeration unit and you need 120 volt power for service
receptacles and lighting. Since 240 volt delta is much cheaper to
install as corner grounded delta the cost effective way to provide both
voltages is to run two circuits. Another example is a guard house for
an industrial complex that has 480/277 volt air conditioning and
lighting together with 208/120 volt power for receptacles. In short
those exceptions are only intended to be applied were a single branch
circuit or feeder cannot supply the needed power.



That is not what the code says. In fact the handbook shows a combo
NEMA 5-15 and 6-15 device in the example.
(a duplex receptacle with a 120 and a 240 outlet)



Now I understand what you are saying. The higher voltages I was
referring to are the ones that the OP was referring to such as 480/277.
Such higher voltages cannot be derived from the same circuit without
using a transformer as opposed to may not be derived from the same
circuit because the code prohibits it which it does not. My point was
that the exception allowing multiple feeders or branch circuits for
different voltage characteristics does not apply to situations were the
needed voltages can be derived from the same circuit. I do not see any
conflict between our two postings. I was urging the OP not to run two
circuits to obtain the 240 & 120 volt circuits he needs. I believe you
were suggesting that he use a single multi wire branch circuit to
accomplish that.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

The US NEC requires a disconnecting means for each separate structure.

"225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that
supply or pass through the building or structure.
225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of
the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through
the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For
the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be
permitted to be utilized."

So as long as your panel is located "at a readily accessible location
nearest the point of entrance of the conductors" all you have to do is
install a double pole breaker with a breaker tie down kit and feed your
supply into the breakers terminals. That breaker is then the service
disconnecting means for the shed. The phrase "nearest the point of
entrance of the conductors" is generally held to mean not more than five
linear or ten wire feet from were the conductors enter the structure.

Since, IIRC, you are in Washington State you would be under the Uniform
Building Code (UBC). The UBC has no rules about whether the disconnect
is inside or outside of the structure. The Southern Building Code
required and exterior disconnecting means at one time.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

OK so just add a double pole 30A breaker as a main breaker in the panel.

chester wrote:


The US NEC requires a disconnecting means for each separate structure.

"225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors
that supply or pass through the building or structure.
225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of
the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through
the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a
readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the
conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in
230.6 shall be permitted to be utilized."

So as long as your panel is located "at a readily accessible location
nearest the point of entrance of the conductors" all you have to do
is install a double pole breaker with a breaker tie down kit and feed
your supply into the breakers terminals. That breaker is then the
service disconnecting means for the shed. The phrase "nearest the
point of entrance of the conductors" is generally held to mean not
more than five linear or ten wire feet from were the conductors enter
the structure.

Since, IIRC, you are in Washington State you would be under the
Uniform Building Code (UBC). The UBC has no rules about whether the
disconnect is inside or outside of the structure. The Southern
Building Code required and exterior disconnecting means at one time.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too
dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison


OK so just add a double pole 30A breaker as a main breaker in the panel.

Yes with a breaker tie down kit provided that the panel is mounted
"nearest the point of entrance of the conductors."
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

HorneTD wrote:


"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Edison must have known AMUN...

wrote:
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:14:32 -0700, chester
wrote:


The US NEC requires a disconnecting means for each separate structure.

"225.31 Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided for disconnecting all ungrounded conductors that
supply or pass through the building or structure.
225.32 Location.
The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of
the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through
the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily
accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For
the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be
permitted to be utilized."

So as long as your panel is located "at a readily accessible location
nearest the point of entrance of the conductors" all you have to do is
install a double pole breaker with a breaker tie down kit and feed your
supply into the breakers terminals. That breaker is then the service
disconnecting means for the shed. The phrase "nearest the point of
entrance of the conductors" is generally held to mean not more than five
linear or ten wire feet from were the conductors enter the structure.

Since, IIRC, you are in Washington State you would be under the Uniform
Building Code (UBC). The UBC has no rules about whether the disconnect
is inside or outside of the structure. The Southern Building Code
required and exterior disconnecting means at one time.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

OK so just add a double pole 30A breaker as a main breaker in the panel.


As long as there are no more than 6 breakers in the shed he is OK
without a "main" out there.

That's true as long as all of the breakers are clearly labeled to
indicate they are service disconnecting means.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Goedjn wrote:
OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the subpanels
are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially cheaper 10/3
AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be sufficient:
2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such, gives me ~15A,
assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be sufficient, and a LOT
cheaper. Comments?
thx


What are you using the shed for, again? And what's the price
difference, and does that price difference change if you go
to conduit and/or individual strand?

Well, it is actually more like a backyard "cabin". About 250 sq feet,
with one indoor light fixture, one outdoor motion-activated light. it
willl have a couch, a table and a desk. It is like adding a room on to a
house I figure. Electrical load will be TV, heater, maybe a tredmill,
light, etc. Light electircal load, I think. Occaisonally I willl be
running a miter saw or skill saw, or some other power tool. One at a
time, always. I think 30A is enogh, but I will run conduit, in case I
want to change.

I wonder, if I run conduit, the whole way out, even if it is
underground, do I need UF cable?

30A is probably enough for a home workshop with one user,
and if you use conduit, you can always swap out the
feeder and breaker(s) if you decide to upgrade.

(Although if we were making stone soup, I'd observer that
having a few extra amps for an arc-welder is always, good,
and wouldn't it be nice to be able to put in AC and a
refridgerator?...)

--Goedjn

wrote:
On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:37:59 GMT, HorneTD
wrote:


That's true as long as all of the breakers are clearly labeled to
indicate they are service disconnecting means.
--

"service"?

That would be misleading, there are no service conductors present
here.

You folks are really working too hard to make this complicated

225.37 Exception No. 2: This identification shall not be required for
branch circuits installed from a dwelling unit to a second building or
structure.

It is a good idea to label these as disconnects but not required. The
panelboard still has to be labelled tho.

A fireman will probably pull the meter anyway


225.7 does not apply to a building with a single source of supply so the
exceptions to it do not apply either. THE UBC and the Uniform Fire
Prevention Code, which are adopted by law in the OPs state of
Washington, both require the labeling of building disconnecting means.

Most Firefighters do not pull meters because they can fail explosively
when that is improperly done. What we do is to open all of the utility
disconnects we can find.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

gk wrote:
Goedjn wrote:

OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the
subpanels are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially
cheaper 10/3 AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be
sufficient: 2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such,
gives me ~15A, assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be
sufficient, and a LOT cheaper. Comments?
thx



What are you using the shed for, again? And what's the price
difference, and does that price difference change if you go to conduit
and/or individual strand?

30A is probably enough for a home workshop with one user, and if you
use conduit, you can always swap out the
feeder and breaker(s) if you decide to upgrade.

(Although if we were making stone soup, I'd observer that
having a few extra amps for an arc-welder is always, good,
and wouldn't it be nice to be able to put in AC and a
refridgerator?...)

--Goedjn



Well, it is actually more like a backyard "cabin". About 250 sq feet,
with one indoor light fixture, one outdoor motion-activated light. it
will have a couch, a table and a desk. It is like adding a room on to
a house I figure. Electrical load will be TV, heater, maybe a
treadmill, light, etc. Light electrical load, I think. Occasionally I
will be running a miter saw or skill saw, or some other power tool.
One at a time, always. I think 30A is enough, but I will run conduit,
in case I want to change.

I wonder, if I run conduit, the whole way out, even if it is
underground, do I need UF cable?


No you do not need UF or any other form of cable in conduit. You can
run individual conductors that are suitable for wet locations such as
very commonly available THWN. T = Thermoplastic, H = High temperature @
75 degree centigrade temperature rating of the insulation, W = Wet
locations, N = Nylon coated.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

HorneTD wrote:

Most Firefighters do not pull meters because they can fail explosively
when that is improperly done. What we do is to open all of the utility
disconnects we can find.

Could you describe how it is "improperly done"? [I'm not challenging
what you said.]

Bud--