symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.

In article .com, "MJR" wrote:
symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

Turn the circuit breaker(s) off, or pull the fuse(s).

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.

Sounds like there's a leak in the conduit, and a break in the cable.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

MJR wrote:
symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.


10 to 1 you have a splice or screw connection which has gone bad in
either the hot or neutral feed wires to the garage. It is not completely
open, but has unusably high resistance.

At the very low current drawn by the garage door sensors there's still
enough voltage (the 104 volts you measured) to let the sensors light up.
Any load much heavier than that causes the voltage to collapse to near
nothing. That's why trying to turn on a light makes the sensors go out.

Good luck finding it. If you are lucky and there are no splices or
joints in the wires underground you may just find that there's a loose
screw connection or wirenut on something like the circuit breaker
feeding that line or maybe in a box in the garage where the underground
wires split out to the various things using power in the garage.

Try using a light bulb with an appropriate socket and leads instead of
your voltage tester. That'll give you a more realistic load to test with.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

MJR wrote:
symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.

For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is a red
herring.

Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not. Now
check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be protecting your
garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or breaker box. It the
test and reset button on each one.

If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low amp
induced current and you never would have been able to measure it without
that digital meter you used.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:

MJR wrote:

symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.


For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is a red
herring.

Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not. Now
check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be protecting your
garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or breaker box. It the
test and reset button on each one.

If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low amp
induced current and you never would have been able to measure it without
that digital meter you used.



Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough current
to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being provided by
induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if they are
extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that happening.

Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my money
on a high resistance joint somewhere.

That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
means are correct, something that isn't always true on this newsgroup. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Many people, including some posters on this newsgroup, think that all
electrical problems are a "short circuit" and have no concept as to what a
short circuit is and what it would do. Their analytical skills and knowledge
is just as accurate.

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Joseph Meehan wrote:

MJR wrote:

symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.


For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is a red
herring.

Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not. Now
check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be protecting your
garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or breaker box. It the
test and reset button on each one.

If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low amp
induced current and you never would have been able to measure it without
that digital meter you used.



Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough current
to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being provided by
induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if they are
extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that happening.

Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my money
on a high resistance joint somewhere.

That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
means are correct, something that isn't always true on this newsgroup. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

EXT wrote:
Many people, including some posters on this newsgroup, think that all
electrical problems are a "short circuit" and have no concept as to what a
short circuit is and what it would do. Their analytical skills and knowledge
is just as accurate.




Well, we can't expect everyone to be a qualified tech writer. I'm not
one to rag on people who aren't skilled in every possible art, as long
as they don't insist that they are when they're patently not. Sometimes
trying to decode what a poster is really telling here can provide an
interesting challenge.

I'd hate to have my internist chide me because I couldn't explain what I
thought my ailment was using the proper clinical jargon.

OTOH, I pretty much agree with folks here who say, "Get a qualified
electrician fast", when the OP seems too naive to get all the way up to
speed through a few posts. Humans haven't evolved senses which let them
see, hear or smell household electricity unless it's already started
something frying or burning. The risks of immediate electrocution or
subsequent incineration of innocent victims are pretty high. Apparant
fools shouldn't be encouraged to rush in where angels dare to tread.
(Sermon over.)

This all reminded me of when I used to repair radios & TVs in the vacuum
toob days. I'd sometimes tell a customer that the problem I'd found in
their equipment was "a loose disconnection" when I was pretty sure
they'd never understand what I'd really done, even if I explained it a
dozen times. G

Peace,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

MJR wrote:

symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.


For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is a
red herring.

Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not. Now
check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be
protecting your garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or
breaker box. It the test and reset button on each one.

If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low
amp induced current and you never would have been able to measure it
without that digital meter you used.



Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough
current to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being
provided by induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if
they are extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that
happening.

I suspect if they are lighting up the sensors, it is not just an induced
current. Note that I did say IF that (resetting breakers and GFIs) ...
Maybe I should have been more direct with my "IF" ;-)


Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my
money on a high resistance joint somewhere.

That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
means are correct, something that isn't always true on this
newsgroup. G
Jeff

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

To all posters so far thanks. here are some additional comments

1. The circuit breaker never flipped to off by itself, I identified it
and switched it off and on, to no avail
and then switched it off for the day as a safety measure.
2. There are 3 wall outlets in the garage 2 with external GFI buttons,
with both when I hit reset and hold it , I feel a subtle clicking
noise, when I push the test button, the glow tester in the outlet goes
off, when I release the test button the glow tester goes on. the reset
button never "pops out" as I have seen with some other GFI outlets.
3. there are no other outlets or switches that I know of between the
conduit leaving the house and that entering the garage. alowing with
the hot and neutral wires, there is a 3 way switch bundle for an
outside light on the garage, with switches in my kitchen and in the
garage.

I think I will replace or check the circuit - in the interest of
safety, I will have my wife actually swap it out :-)

MJR wrote:
To all posters so far thanks. here are some additional comments

1. The circuit breaker never flipped to off by itself, I identified it
and switched it off and on, to no avail
and then switched it off for the day as a safety measure.
2. There are 3 wall outlets in the garage 2 with external GFI buttons,
with both when I hit reset and hold it , I feel a subtle clicking
noise, when I push the test button, the glow tester in the outlet goes
off, when I release the test button the glow tester goes on. the reset
button never "pops out" as I have seen with some other GFI outlets.
3. there are no other outlets or switches that I know of between the
conduit leaving the house and that entering the garage. alowing with
the hot and neutral wires, there is a 3 way switch bundle for an
outside light on the garage, with switches in my kitchen and in the
garage.

I think I will replace or check the circuit - in the interest of
safety, I will have my wife actually swap it out :-)

Try disconnecting the downstream wires at the GFIs. If things work
normal (other than what would be out because you disconnected parts of the
circuit, then I would guess you have a fault on the circuit you just
disconnected.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

SUCCESS!

I tested the circuit breaker, no problem there

I tested the wire exiting the house, no problem there - tested with a
bulb not a meter

I tested some outlets in the garage with a bulb, very dim light -
orange glow was all I got.

I went back to the garage and tried to wrap my head around the wiring,
where did it come into the garage from the underground conduit.
after a couple days of an hour here and there, I decided it was time to
break into the wall and find the junction from the house. I picked the
wall, based on my understanding of the wiring, got out my saw, and then
wifey came to look, she said "wait, isn't there something there? I
checked and indeed there was a junction box hidden in the wall under a
faceplate, covered and hidden behind a couple years worth of house
discards that get stored in the garage.
I removed the faceplate, tested the wires (always turning off the
cicuit breaker before touching wires...) , same problem, dim bulb.
Then, I saw it, a spare/unused wire in the bundle, what if
I swapped the spare with the neutral or hot wire from the house? would
it work? was just one wire damaged?
In short yes, the neutral one was bad, now the spare (blue) is
functioning as neutral, no wires to pull , no yard to dig up

life is good, thanks all

MJR wrote:

That test result with the dim light, leads me to believe you have/had a
floating neutral. I can't quite get into my head your wiring design, so I
am not all that sure that you fixed the problem or just changed it.
Floating neutrals can be dangerous. I once had a boss who burned down his
prior photo studio because of a floating neutral.


SUCCESS!

I tested the circuit breaker, no problem there

I tested the wire exiting the house, no problem there - tested with a
bulb not a meter

I tested some outlets in the garage with a bulb, very dim light -
orange glow was all I got.

I went back to the garage and tried to wrap my head around the wiring,
where did it come into the garage from the underground conduit.
after a couple days of an hour here and there, I decided it was time
to break into the wall and find the junction from the house. I picked
the wall, based on my understanding of the wiring, got out my saw,
and then wifey came to look, she said "wait, isn't there something
there? I checked and indeed there was a junction box hidden in the
wall under a faceplate, covered and hidden behind a couple years
worth of house discards that get stored in the garage.
I removed the faceplate, tested the wires (always turning off the
cicuit breaker before touching wires...) , same problem, dim bulb.
Then, I saw it, a spare/unused wire in the bundle, what if
I swapped the spare with the neutral or hot wire from the house? would
it work? was just one wire damaged?
In short yes, the neutral one was bad, now the spare (blue) is
functioning as neutral, no wires to pull , no yard to dig up

life is good, thanks all

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

ldiddy had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...uit-22733-.htm
:
I read the short circuit thread and I don't know if that's my problem or
not. My house electricity works, nothing in my garage works.
Suggestions? Estimated costs?


-------------------------------------
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

MJR wrote:

symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house,
under
the yard to the garage.


For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is
a red
herring.

Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not.
Now
check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be protecting
your
garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or breaker box.
It the
test and reset button on each one.

If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low
amp
induced current and you never would have been able to measure it
without
that digital meter you used.



Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough
current
to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being provided by
induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if they are
extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that happening.

Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my money

on a high resistance joint somewhere.

That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
means are correct, something that isn't always true on this newsgroup.
G

Jeff





##-----------------------------------------------##
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The first thing to do is find the junction box in the garage, where the
conduit comes into when it comes out of the ground, separate the feed wires
from the load wires and test them for proper voltage. If you don't have it,
check it at the other end of the conduit before it goes underground. This
will at least give you some idea of where the problem is



"ldiddy" wrote in message
m...
ldiddy had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...uit-22733-.htm
:
I read the short circuit thread and I don't know if that's my problem or
not. My house electricity works, nothing in my garage works.
Suggestions? Estimated costs?


-------------------------------------
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Joseph Meehan wrote:

MJR wrote:

symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house,
under
the yard to the garage.


For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is
a red
herring.

Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not.
Now
check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be protecting
your
garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or breaker box.
It the
test and reset button on each one.

If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low
amp
induced current and you never would have been able to measure it
without
that digital meter you used.



Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough
current
to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being provided by
induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if they are
extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that happening.

Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my money

on a high resistance joint somewhere.

That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
means are correct, something that isn't always true on this newsgroup.
G

Jeff





##-----------------------------------------------##
Delivered via http://www.thestuccocompany.com/
Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 267187 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

RBM wrote:
The first thing to do is find the junction box in the garage, where the
conduit comes into when it comes out of the ground, separate the feed wires
from the load wires and test them for proper voltage.

.... and test again, with a modest load applied (100-watt trouble light
or something similar).

I think the first guy who responded (Jeff) has it right.


If you don't have it,
check it at the other end of the conduit before it goes underground. This
will at least give you some idea of where the problem is

MJR wrote:
symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage


what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
the yard to the garage.

Hi,
Using analog meter like Simpson 260? Measured voltage between hot and
neutral, hot and ground? Is it on GFCI circuit?

MJR wrote:
symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener
sensors light
up 4. when light switch is on (lights don't go
on), sensors
go off 5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all
outlets in
garage what should I do (besides calling an
electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in
6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit
from the
house, under the yard to the garage.

Hi,
Using analog meter like Simpson 260? Measured
voltage
between hot and neutral, hot and ground? Is it
on GFCI
circuit?

That sure sounds like an underground wiring
problem. Not wires shorted to each other, but
shorted to earth ground.
1. Try killing ALL power in the garage:
physically unplug as much as you can, if it can't
be unplugged, be sure it's OFF and not drawing any
power (as in standby modes).

2. Do you see something closer to 110V at the
panel in the garage? If so, something is drawing
power between that panel and the main panel - as
in, a ckt to gnd due to insulation compromise,
whatever.

3. IF you're seeing something closer to 110Vac,
then connect something in the garage that draws
power. Perhaps a halogen light, or anything that
will draw a few amps. Look at that same voltage
again. If it's dropped substantially from
whatever voltage you read before, it's definitely
going to be an underground wiring problem,
probably due to the water you mentioned.

4. IF the voltage in step 1 is 104V regardless of
whether anything is connected or not, go to the
main panel and read the voltage to the garage
wires there.

5. IF it's 110V, then there's something drawing a
lot of current underground.

6. IF it's 104, something else is going on and
it's not underground, most likely. To be certain,
just pull the wires from the main panel connection
(panel OFF) and see if that brings it back to 110
or whatever.
Make sure the whole house isn't seeing that low
voltage.

Neglecting meter calibration, parallax error,
etc., 104 V ac at the main panel and thus the
whole house is right at the lower limit of usable
grid voltage. In that case the problem most
likely becomes that of the transformer out on the
pole being bad or needing replacement. 104Vac is
also tough on anything with a motor in it; they
tend to run pretty hot. 110 to 120 V is the
normally accepted norm, depending on where you
live. Tolerance is allowed to be up to 10% but is
seldom that far off for even the most remote
areas.

If I've mistated anything I'm sure someone will
catch it and correct itg.


HTH,

Twayne

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
MJR wrote:
symptoms
1. garage lights won't turn on
2. garage door opener won't go up/down
3. when light switch is off, garage opener
sensors light
up 4. when light switch is on (lights don't go
on), sensors
go off 5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all
outlets in
garage what should I do (besides calling an
electrician)?

the problem began soon after the first rains in
6 weeks

the power to the garage is underground conduit
from the
house, under the yard to the garage.

Hi,
Using analog meter like Simpson 260? Measured
voltage
between hot and neutral, hot and ground? Is it
on GFCI
circuit?

That sure sounds like an underground wiring
problem. Not wires shorted to each other, but
shorted to earth ground.
1. Try killing ALL power in the garage:
physically unplug as much as you can, if it can't
be unplugged, be sure it's OFF and not drawing any
power (as in standby modes).

2. Do you see something closer to 110V at the
panel in the garage? If so, something is drawing
power between that panel and the main panel - as
in, a ckt to gnd due to insulation compromise,
whatever.

3. IF you're seeing something closer to 110Vac,
then connect something in the garage that draws
power. Perhaps a halogen light, or anything that
will draw a few amps. Look at that same voltage
again. If it's dropped substantially from
whatever voltage you read before, it's definitely
going to be an underground wiring problem,
probably due to the water you mentioned.

4. IF the voltage in step 1 is 104V regardless of
whether anything is connected or not, go to the
main panel and read the voltage to the garage
wires there.

5. IF it's 110V, then there's something drawing a
lot of current underground.

6. IF it's 104, something else is going on and
it's not underground, most likely. To be certain,
just pull the wires from the main panel connection
(panel OFF) and see if that brings it back to 110
or whatever.
Make sure the whole house isn't seeing that low
voltage.

Neglecting meter calibration, parallax error,
etc., 104 V ac at the main panel and thus the
whole house is right at the lower limit of usable
grid voltage. In that case the problem most
likely becomes that of the transformer out on the
pole being bad or needing replacement. 104Vac is
also tough on anything with a motor in it; they
tend to run pretty hot. 110 to 120 V is the
normally accepted norm, depending on where you
live. Tolerance is allowed to be up to 10% but is
seldom that far off for even the most remote
areas.

If I've mistated anything I'm sure someone will
catch it and correct itg.


HTH,

Twayne

Sounds like an open circuit condition (high resistance). When heavier loads
are off, just enough current flows to operate the sensors (which use only a
couple watts). When something that uses more power, like the lights, are
turned on, the high resistance can't provide the current and the voltage
drops to near 0 and the sensors go out..

I assume he gets 104 volts when the sensor is on (lights switch is off).