Hello,
I am investigating the possibility of installing a
ductless split AC system in my small apartment (665 sq
ft).

My question is whether the "outside" unit of the split
system needs to be outside or on a roof? Can it be in
the utility closet which currently houses the furnace
and water heater?

thank you for any feedback,
Jason.

Hi cowboy, hope you are having a nice day

On 28-Jun-05 At About 09:08:29, cowboy wrote to All
Subject: ductless split A/C system

c From: "cowboy"

c the outside unit must be outside to work correctly, but a roof is OK

c also, it needs to be out of direct sunlight if possible, you will
c save a lot of money if it is in shade, so

I don't know where you get your info but shade doesn't matter.

c I would consider a little
c hut over it,

not needed.

-= HvacTech2 =-


... URA Redneck if you've ever worn a cowboy hat to church.

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Hi cowboy, hope you are having a nice day

On 28-Jun-05 At About 10:11:03, cowboy wrote to All
Subject: ductless split A/C system

c From: "cowboy"


c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil keeps it
cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute influence on the
head pressure. please get some training somewhere before you try to answer
these questions. you really do need it.

-= HvacTech2 =-


... I'm not really a cowboy. I just found the hat...

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"Jason" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,
I am investigating the possibility of installing a
ductless split AC system in my small apartment (665 sq
ft).

My question is whether the "outside" unit of the split
system needs to be outside or on a roof? Can it be in
the utility closet which currently houses the furnace
and water heater?

thank you for any feedback,
Jason.

Yes the condenser must go outside. Location to be determined by the unit
and installation needs.
Other wise your just moving the heat from one room to another instead of
removing it.

Hi cowboy, hope you are having a nice day

On 28-Jun-05 At About 11:51:28, cowboy wrote to All
Subject: ductless split A/C system

c From: "cowboy"

c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil
keeps it cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute
influence on the head pressure. please get some training somewhere
before you try to answer these questions. you really do need it.


c you are really embarrassing yourself in front of everyone, this point
c is not even debatable!

c you don't get to defy basic science, no matter how clueless you are!

c if you really believe this (because you have never had a class in
c basic thermodynamics, and are basically just a stupid redneck with a
c GED) you can easily prove it to yourself by doing a simple
c experiment that even YOU can understand!

c hook a clamp on ammeter around the unit's lead-in, measure current
c draw after running unit in the sun for an hour in the hot part of
c the day, then shade condenser and measure in another hour (make sure
c that the ambient temp outside is the same in both cases)

c you will see a significant difference in energy consumption!

c here is a good book:
c http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0486632776 ISBN:
c 0486632776

c please do us a favor and read it, you look like a horse's ass to the
c engineers and scientists that lurk on this board!

So clueless. you really need to buy and read these books you keep referring
to.


-= HvacTech2 =-


... Only in your dreams are you really free.

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the outside unit must be outside to work correctly, but a roof is OK

also, it needs to be out of direct sunlight if possible, you will save a lot
of money if it is in shade, so I would consider a little hut over it, if
mounting on the roof, just make sure that the unit has plenty of space on
all sides and on top, at least 2' all around, and the airflow around it is
not restricted by the "hut"

natural shade is fine too, such as from a tree or neighboring high-rise
building


cheers!

cowboy

"Jason" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,
I am investigating the possibility of installing a
ductless split AC system in my small apartment (665 sq
ft).

My question is whether the "outside" unit of the split
system needs to be outside or on a roof? Can it be in
the utility closet which currently houses the furnace
and water heater?

thank you for any feedback,
Jason.

"HvacTech2" wrote
Hi cowboy, hope you are having a nice day

On 28-Jun-05 At About 09:08:29, cowboy wrote to All
Subject: ductless split A/C system

c From: "cowboy"

c the outside unit must be outside to work correctly, but a roof is OK

c also, it needs to be out of direct sunlight if possible, you will
c save a lot of money if it is in shade, so

I don't know where you get your info but shade doesn't matter.
-= HvacTech2 =-


actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said it
would cost less.

I will explain the physics of it:

how hard the compressor has to work is proportional to the head pressure it
is up against, and a shaded condenser is cooler, and therefore has a lower
head pressure at the same ambient temperature, not to mention that the final
temperature out the ducts will also be lower, which will allow the unit to
stay off for a longer period of time, even further saving money.

so the long and short of it is, a unit will work just fine in full sun, but
it will work a lot cheaper in shade

in wintertime, a heat pump would work a little better in sun than in shade,
but not nearly enough to offset the summer saving, not even close.


cheers!

cowboy
hvac engineer & tech

c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil keeps
it
cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute influence on the
head pressure. please get some training somewhere before you try to answer
these questions. you really do need it.


you are really embarrassing yourself in front of everyone, this point is not
even debatable!

you don't get to defy basic science, no matter how clueless you are!

if you really believe this (because you have never had a class in basic
thermodynamics, and are basically just a stupid redneck with a GED) you can
easily prove it to yourself by doing a simple experiment that even YOU can
understand!

hook a clamp on ammeter around the unit's lead-in, measure current draw
after running unit in the sun for an hour in the hot part of the day, then
shade condenser and measure in another hour (make sure that the ambient temp
outside is the same in both cases)

you will see a significant difference in energy consumption!

here is a good book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0486632776
ISBN: 0486632776

please do us a favor and read it, you look like a horse's ass to the
engineers and scientists that lurk on this board!

cheers!

cowboy

"cowboy" wrote in message
...
c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil keeps
it
cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute influence on the
head pressure. please get some training somewhere before you try to
answer
these questions. you really do need it.


you are really embarrassing yourself in front of everyone, this point is
not even debatable!



Cowboy, look in he mirror, you are mistaken on who should be embarrassed!
It does little good to shade a condensing unit. It is much more important to
make sure the unit is placed where it will get a good unrestricted flow of
air. Placing a "hut" over it is just asking for trouble.
Greg

Hi Greg, hope you are having a nice day

On 28-Jun-05 At About 10:47:18, Greg O wrote to All
Subject: ductless split A/C system

GO From: "Greg O"


GO Cowboy, look in he mirror, you are mistaken on who should be
GO embarrassed! It does little good to shade a condensing unit. It is
GO much more important to make sure the unit is placed where it will get
GO a good unrestricted flow of air. Placing a "hut" over it is just
GO asking for trouble. Greg

It doesn't do any good to try to explain anything to this guy. he thinks he
is right even when you show him in black and white that he is wrong.
it is guys like Meehan and this one that cause homeowners more problems than
they started with by handing out wrong info which causes more damage to the
equipment then when they started.


-= HvacTech2 =-


... Mac screen message: "Like, dude, something went wrong."

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spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail

You don't even have a clue...


"cowboy" wrote in message
...
c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil
keeps
it
cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute influence on
the
head pressure. please get some training somewhere before you try to
answer
these questions. you really do need it.


you are really embarrassing yourself in front of everyone, this point is
not
even debatable!

you don't get to defy basic science, no matter how clueless you are!

if you really believe this (because you have never had a class in basic
thermodynamics, and are basically just a stupid redneck with a GED) you
can
easily prove it to yourself by doing a simple experiment that even YOU can
understand!

hook a clamp on ammeter around the unit's lead-in, measure current draw
after running unit in the sun for an hour in the hot part of the day,
then
shade condenser and measure in another hour (make sure that the ambient
temp
outside is the same in both cases)

you will see a significant difference in energy consumption!

here is a good book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0486632776
ISBN: 0486632776

please do us a favor and read it, you look like a horse's ass to the
engineers and scientists that lurk on this board!

cheers!

cowboy

"HvacTech2" wrote in message
...



It doesn't do any good to try to explain anything to this guy. he thinks
he
is right even when you show him in black and white that he is wrong.



It is funny that there three guys in these thread alone that called him out,
but I am sure he believes he is still right! He is living in his on little
Utopia!
Greg

Cowboy,

While there is a VERY SLIGHT energy savings from shading the outdoor
unit, the cost of building the hut over the onit will exceed the energy
savings over a long time. The payback is likely to exceed 10 years,
depending on construction costs and local energy rates. Look at how
much heat is rejected to the air vs how much solar gain you get. The
solar gain is a very small percentage of the heat rejected. Just
figure the heat input from the sun is about the same as the solar gain
for a like sized single pane window. Also consider that any shelter
you erect is going to restict air flow some or cause air recirculation.
Either will reduce efficiency of the system, possibly more than the
savings from reduced solar gain. Cowboy, you are just spitting in the
wind. Are you possibly related to Nick at Villanova? You sound a lot
like him!

Stretch


Stretch

sorry guys, but just because the majority have the same opinion, that
doesn't mean its not wrong!

if you doubt that, look at the election last November, the idiot "majority"
elected the worst president of my lifetime

sometimes you have to pay the price for your mistakes

and some people will never learn!

"Stretch" wrote in message
oups.com...
Cowboy,

While there is a VERY SLIGHT energy savings from shading the outdoor
unit, the cost of building the hut over the onit will exceed the energy
savings over a long time. The payback is likely to exceed 10 years,
depending on construction costs and local energy rates. Look at how
much heat is rejected to the air vs how much solar gain you get. The
solar gain is a very small percentage of the heat rejected. Just
figure the heat input from the sun is about the same as the solar gain
for a like sized single pane window. Also consider that any shelter
you erect is going to restict air flow some or cause air recirculation.
Either will reduce efficiency of the system, possibly more than the
savings from reduced solar gain. Cowboy, you are just spitting in the
wind. Are you possibly related to Nick at Villanova? You sound a lot
like him!

Stretch



We won't see too much more of him. He's running with his tail between his
legs...

"cowboy" wrote in message
...
sorry guys, but just because the majority have the same opinion, that
doesn't mean its not wrong!

if you doubt that, look at the election last November, the idiot
"majority"
elected the worst president of my lifetime

Right. Jimmy Carter was before your time?

"cowboy" wrote in message
...
sorry guys, but just because the majority have the same opinion, that
doesn't mean its not wrong!

if you doubt that, look at the election last November, the idiot
"majority" elected the worst president of my lifetime

sometimes you have to pay the price for your mistakes

and some people will never learn!




Whether we have the correct president or not, is an opinion. Many people
would disagree with you on that opinion..
The drivel you throw out as facts is easily proved wrong.
Two very different things.
Greg

We won't see too much more of him. He's running with his tail between his
legs...


are you on crack?

I am one of the most prolific posters on this board

I just get tired of re-explaining the same basic HVAC 101 concepts to idiots
who think they know everything and actually know very little.

once I have explained the physics or thermodynamics or just a basic concept
to a dumb redneck who is working on his GED, and he still doesn't get it,
and refuses to buy any books, etc, and help himself, that is really all I
can do.

I believe there is a word that describes those of you that suffer from this
affliction. the word is CLUELESS!

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...


We won't see too much more of him. He's running with his tail between his
legs...



Why would he be running?
He is a legend in his own mind!
Greg

cowboy wrote:
c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil keeps
it
cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute influence on the
head pressure. please get some training somewhere before you try to answer
these questions. you really do need it.


you are really embarrassing yourself in front of everyone, this point is not
even debatable!

you don't get to defy basic science, no matter how clueless you are!

if you really believe this (because you have never had a class in basic
thermodynamics, and are basically just a stupid redneck with a GED) you can
easily prove it to yourself by doing a simple experiment that even YOU can
understand!

hook a clamp on ammeter around the unit's lead-in, measure current draw
after running unit in the sun for an hour in the hot part of the day, then
shade condenser and measure in another hour (make sure that the ambient temp
outside is the same in both cases)

you will see a significant difference in energy consumption!

I posted this on the alt.hvac board - didn't find it's own way here.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'd have to dig around for a link. But someone posted a couple months back a
web site where they did study this. two identical houses, they put the
condensing unit in the shade for one, the sun for the other. They found less
than 5% energy usage difference. Doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I'm a lot
cooler in the shade, seems a condensing unit should be, too.

Is this the study? http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/pubs/pf302/
They found less than expected energy savings - minimal in fact. They
figured 3% savings or less would be the maximum effect, and their study
averaged essentially zero.
R

That study doesn't seem to agree with your position. I'm not arguing
the thermodynamic principals, just pointing out that an unbiased,
highly regarded authority in the energy field did a real life study
over a couple of years and found negligible difference between shaded
and unshaded condensors. How do you explain that?

R

cowboy wrote:

We won't see too much more of him. He's running with his tail between his
legs...



are you on crack?

I am one of the most prolific posters on this board

I just get tired of re-explaining the same basic HVAC 101 concepts to idiots
who think they know everything and actually know very little.

once I have explained the physics or thermodynamics or just a basic concept
to a dumb redneck who is working on his GED, and he still doesn't get it,
and refuses to buy any books, etc, and help himself, that is really all I
can do.

I believe there is a word that describes those of you that suffer from this
affliction. the word is CLUELESS!

You sure talk a big talk. OTOH, your record of the last few weeks proves
to the rest of us that you've never done more than read a book or two on
the subject. And apparently books that the working tech and/or engineer
should avoid.

hvacrmedic

RicodJour wrote:

cowboy wrote:

c actually shade matters a lot in your utility bill, that is why I said
c it would cost less.

As I said before, you are mistaken. the air over the condenser coil keeps
it
cool even with the sun on it. sunlight has a very minute influence on the
head pressure. please get some training somewhere before you try to answer
these questions. you really do need it.


you are really embarrassing yourself in front of everyone, this point is not
even debatable!

you don't get to defy basic science, no matter how clueless you are!

if you really believe this (because you have never had a class in basic
thermodynamics, and are basically just a stupid redneck with a GED) you can
easily prove it to yourself by doing a simple experiment that even YOU can
understand!

hook a clamp on ammeter around the unit's lead-in, measure current draw
after running unit in the sun for an hour in the hot part of the day, then
shade condenser and measure in another hour (make sure that the ambient temp
outside is the same in both cases)

you will see a significant difference in energy consumption!


I posted this on the alt.hvac board - didn't find it's own way here.

Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd have to dig around for a link. But someone posted a couple months back a
web site where they did study this. two identical houses, they put the
condensing unit in the shade for one, the sun for the other. They found less
than 5% energy usage difference. Doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I'm a lot
cooler in the shade, seems a condensing unit should be, too.


Is this the study? http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/pubs/pf302/
They found less than expected energy savings - minimal in fact. They
figured 3% savings or less would be the maximum effect, and their study
averaged essentially zero.
R

That study doesn't seem to agree with your position. I'm not arguing
the thermodynamic principals, just pointing out that an unbiased,
highly regarded authority in the energy field did a real life study
over a couple of years and found negligible difference between shaded
and unshaded condensors. How do you explain that?

Paul came up with approx a 2% gain. OTOH, that is considering 100%
absorption and a perpetual maximum exposure.
I converted this to a savings of a dollar or two per month during the
hot summer, but didn't subtract for the partial exposure and partial
absorption. With these accounted for it works out to less than one
dollar per month savings during the hottest months. Also the heat
exhausted from the condenser is the sum of the extracted indoor heat
plus the energy input to the compressor, thus Paul's hypothetical figure
of 36000 btu/hr would have to be adjusted to account for the EER,
further reducing the percent savings.

hvacrmedic



R

cowboy wrote:

We won't see too much more of him. He's running with his tail between his
legs...



are you on crack?

I am one of the most prolific posters on this board

I just get tired of re-explaining the same basic HVAC 101 concepts to idiots
who think they know everything and actually know very little.

once I have explained the physics or thermodynamics or just a basic concept
to a dumb redneck who is working on his GED, and he still doesn't get it,
and refuses to buy any books, etc, and help himself, that is really all I
can do.

I believe there is a word that describes those of you that suffer from this
affliction. the word is CLUELESS!

You sure talk a big talk. OTOH, your record of the last few weeks proves
to the rest of us that you've never done more than read a book or two on
the subject. And apparently books that the working tech and/or engineer
should avoid.

hvacrmedic

"Greg O" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...


We won't see too much more of him. He's running with his tail between
his
legs...



Why would he be running?
He is a legend in his own mind!

Yep. He's an idiot, too. He used to ride the short bus to his special
school.

Thank you all very much for the advice. I must say that all this
internal gripping is a little annoying. And I must comment that in the
Friedrich Wall mounted split type air conditioners installation
instructions found at:
http://www.friedrich.com/pdf/prod_duct.asp

It says: "If possible, do not install the unit where it would be
exposed to direct sunlight. (If necessary, install a blind that does
not interfere with the air flow.)

I am just reporting what I read.

Thanks again.
Jason.