[philo]

Though I've been keeping my political remarks to a minimum ...here is
the exact quote from Gingrich. He made this yesterday on the 75th
anniversary of Pearl Harbor:



"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


One would think the day would have been a good one to praise America but
instead he chose to praise the enemy.

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened
at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand
alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

Had the statement been part of of a broader analysis it might have been
a different issue but it's false no matter how one looks at it. The US
military knew Japan was going to attack, it was generally thought that
it would be more likely to occur in the Philippines. As to the
"brilliance" most of the US fleet was out to sea and from a purely
tactical move on the part of Japan, probably could not have been a worse
day.

It's going to be very difficult for Trump's team to sink below this
level, but Trump is pretty smart and I'm sure things will get even
worse. Perhaps Gingrich can praise the "911" attackers next.

[Stormin' Norman]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:55:22 -0600, philo wrote:


"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


The Japanese did display tactical brilliance and technological
superiority in their attack on Pearl Harbor.

It has been 75 years since the event, the Japanese are now staunch
allies and we as a nation need to be continually reminded just how
imperative it is that we remain prepared and vigilant.

For Gingrich to remind us there are very bright and capable
adversaries out there can effectively help serve the purpose of
keeping the USA and the world on it's toes.

Just what good is the study of history if we ignore the lessons and
refuse to learn from it; all in the name of faux patriotism?

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 09:28 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:55:22 -0600, philo wrote:


"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


The Japanese did display tactical brilliance and technological
superiority in their attack on Pearl Harbor.

It has been 75 years since the event, the Japanese are now staunch
allies and we as a nation need to be continually reminded just how
imperative it is that we remain prepared and vigilant.

For Gingrich to remind us there are very bright and capable
adversaries out there can effectively help serve the purpose of
keeping the USA and the world on it's toes.

Just what good is the study of history if we ignore the lessons and
refuse to learn from it; all in the name of faux patriotism?




Like I said , had this been part of a long analysis that would have been
one thing but this was a stand alone statement he made yesterday on
Twitter. In no place did he praise America.

Also, as I stated there was no brilliance on the part of Japan.
The fleet was out to sea , so only a tiny handful of ships were sunk.
Most were re-floated quite rapidly.

Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

[Stormin' Norman]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:37:51 -0600, philo wrote:

On 12/08/2016 09:28 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:55:22 -0600, philo wrote:


"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


The Japanese did display tactical brilliance and technological
superiority in their attack on Pearl Harbor.

It has been 75 years since the event, the Japanese are now staunch
allies and we as a nation need to be continually reminded just how
imperative it is that we remain prepared and vigilant.

For Gingrich to remind us there are very bright and capable
adversaries out there can effectively help serve the purpose of
keeping the USA and the world on it's toes.

Just what good is the study of history if we ignore the lessons and
refuse to learn from it; all in the name of faux patriotism?




Like I said , had this been part of a long analysis that would have been
one thing but this was a stand alone statement he made yesterday on
Twitter. In no place did he praise America.

There was nothing worthy of national praise for America in the attack
on Pearl. There were numerous acts of individual heroism which have
been acknowledged many times over the years.

The USA screwed the pooch during the lead up to and on the day of 7
December 1941.


Also, as I stated there was no brilliance on the part of Japan.
The fleet was out to sea , so only a tiny handful of ships were sunk.
Most were re-floated quite rapidly.

Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

No brilliance? Absurd. The Japanese didn't completely incapacitate
the Pacific fleet and yes, they could have sent in another wave to
destroy the fuel oil depot and the submarine pens, but in general
their attack was brilliantly executed and the USA was caught with our
pants down, sitting on the pot, taking a dump.

The USA went after Japan with strategic embargoes and trade sanctions
prior to the attack, but we were arrogant and believed the Japanese
were an inferior race and could never seriously challenge the us
militarily. We exhibited tremendous hubris and we had our heads
handed to us because we didn't prepare for the possibility of a
Japanese response to our actions.

[dpb]

On 12/08/2016 8:55 AM, philo wrote:
....

Newt is no dummy. He undoubtedly had an end point to be made; taking
one sentence out of any context whatsoever is just doing so and looking
to take offense just for the pleasure of doing so.

It does go to illustrate that such social media isn't the place for
trying to make any point on anything of importance; there isn't space
nor time. I pay no attention to any of it from anybody and we'd be far
better off without it entirely imo.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per philo:
"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened
at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand
alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

Do you take issue with the accuracy of the statement?
--
Pete Cresswell

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 09:58 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:


snip

No brilliance? Absurd. The Japanese didn't completely incapacitate
the Pacific fleet and yes, they could have sent in another wave to
destroy the fuel oil depot and the submarine pens, but in general
their attack was brilliantly executed and the USA was caught with our
pants down, sitting on the pot, taking a dump.

The USA went after Japan with strategic embargoes and trade sanctions
prior to the attack, but we were arrogant and believed the Japanese
were an inferior race and could never seriously challenge the us
militarily. We exhibited tremendous hubris and we had our heads
handed to us because we didn't prepare for the possibility of a
Japanese response to our actions.



Absurd.

That was /exactly/ what FDR needed to get the US into WW-II
Prior to the attack, though he supported England with supplies and $$$
he needed such an attract to justify America's involvement militarily.


The Japanese were the ones who made a huge mis-judgment because they
though the US would not have the stomach for a war. There was no
brilliance on the part of the Japanese and the attack had (virtually) no
effect on America's military strength.


That said, had Gingrich wanted to praise the Japanese, this was the
worst possible way to have done so.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 9:55:29 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Though I've been keeping my political remarks to a minimum ...here is
the exact quote from Gingrich. He made this yesterday on the 75th
anniversary of Pearl Harbor:



"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


One would think the day would have been a good one to praise America but
instead he chose to praise the enemy.

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened
at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand
alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

It's not true that it was standalone. It was immediately preceded by
this tweet:

€œDecember 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous and shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,€�



Had the statement been part of of a broader analysis it might have been
a different issue

Apparently it was part of a somewhat broader analysis.

but it's false no matter how one looks at it.

How is it false? It was an attack that showed technological power
and professional brilliance. They succeeded in delivering a major
blow to the US Pacific Fleet, the list of ships sunk, aircraft
destroyed, is impressive. And they did it with very minimal losses.


The US
military knew Japan was going to attack,

I don't think that's true. There was increasing tension and the
possibility of something happening was there, but no one knew
for sure anything was coming.


it was generally thought that
it would be more likely to occur in the Philippines. As to the
"brilliance" most of the US fleet was out to sea and from a purely
tactical move on the part of Japan, probably could not have been a worse
day.


You're never going to have a perfect strike, the US carriers being out
to sea was a lucky thing for the US. But overall, it was a stunning
military engagement. The Japanese inflicted huge damage on us, with
very minimal losses to themselves. That is a major success in any
battle.



It's going to be very difficult for Trump's team to sink below this
level, but Trump is pretty smart and I'm sure things will get even
worse. Perhaps Gingrich can praise the "911" attackers next.

I would agree that what Newt said wasn't appropriate on Pearl Harbor
Day, especially since he didn't at least precede it with comments
about the vets. I lost most respect for Newt when he became a Trumpet.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:04 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/08/2016 8:55 AM, philo wrote:
...

Newt is no dummy. He undoubtedly had an end point to be made; taking
one sentence out of any context whatsoever is just doing so and looking
to take offense just for the pleasure of doing so.

It does go to illustrate that such social media isn't the place for
trying to make any point on anything of importance; there isn't space
nor time. I pay no attention to any of it from anybody and we'd be far
better off without it entirely imo.


You purposely chose to misread what I wrote.

I did NOT take Gingrich's quote out of context. That was the sum total
of his statement.

No matter how you take it, Pearl Harbor day was a bad day to praise the
Japanese attack. Gingrich made no comment anywhere in praise of American
values.

Gingrich is the biggest gutless wonder I've yet seen in Trump's cast of
characters. As a veteran I find "Armchair Generals" quite pukeable.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per philo:
Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

I liked the quote in "Tora! Tora! Tora" attributed to admiral Yamamoto:
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with
a terrible resolve"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto's_sleeping_giant_quote
--
Pete Cresswell

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 9:58 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 09:37:51 -0600, philo wrote:

On 12/08/2016 09:28 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:55:22 -0600, philo wrote:


"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


The Japanese did display tactical brilliance and technological
superiority in their attack on Pearl Harbor.

It has been 75 years since the event, the Japanese are now staunch
allies and we as a nation need to be continually reminded just how
imperative it is that we remain prepared and vigilant.

For Gingrich to remind us there are very bright and capable
adversaries out there can effectively help serve the purpose of
keeping the USA and the world on it's toes.

Just what good is the study of history if we ignore the lessons and
refuse to learn from it; all in the name of faux patriotism?




Like I said , had this been part of a long analysis that would have been
one thing but this was a stand alone statement he made yesterday on
Twitter. In no place did he praise America.

There was nothing worthy of national praise for America in the attack
on Pearl. There were numerous acts of individual heroism which have
been acknowledged many times over the years.

The USA screwed the pooch during the lead up to and on the day of 7
December 1941.


Also, as I stated there was no brilliance on the part of Japan.
The fleet was out to sea , so only a tiny handful of ships were sunk.
Most were re-floated quite rapidly.

Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

No brilliance? Absurd. The Japanese didn't completely incapacitate
the Pacific fleet and yes, they could have sent in another wave to
destroy the fuel oil depot and the submarine pens, but in general
their attack was brilliantly executed and the USA was caught with our
pants down, sitting on the pot, taking a dump.

The USA went after Japan with strategic embargoes and trade sanctions
prior to the attack, but we were arrogant and believed the Japanese
were an inferior race and could never seriously challenge the us
militarily. We exhibited tremendous hubris and we had our heads
handed to us because we didn't prepare for the possibility of a
Japanese response to our actions.


We were watching a documentary a couple days ago on what happened in our
government the months prior to the the attack, and part of the problem
was that the flow of secret intelligence was horrific between those who
received intelligence and those who were in charge. One report said
part of the process was for a courier to hand deliver intel to military
heads and those officers were only allowed to read the intel for a
specific amount of time and then had to hand it back to the courier.
Those who read the info weren't allowed to take notes, or make copies of
the intel, either.

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel were
just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until
the people researching for this current documentary found the
declassified information, and put it together with other intel for analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that
Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs.
once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the
information of increased surveillance never reached the right people who
could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese
MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not allowing
a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could
interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually
*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested,
but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general
in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.

--
Maggie

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 10:37:56 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 09:28 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 08:55:22 -0600, philo wrote:


"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


The Japanese did display tactical brilliance and technological
superiority in their attack on Pearl Harbor.

It has been 75 years since the event, the Japanese are now staunch
allies and we as a nation need to be continually reminded just how
imperative it is that we remain prepared and vigilant.

For Gingrich to remind us there are very bright and capable
adversaries out there can effectively help serve the purpose of
keeping the USA and the world on it's toes.

Just what good is the study of history if we ignore the lessons and
refuse to learn from it; all in the name of faux patriotism?




Like I said , had this been part of a long analysis that would have been
one thing but this was a stand alone statement he made yesterday on
Twitter. In no place did he praise America.

Also, as I stated there was no brilliance on the part of Japan.
The fleet was out to sea , so only a tiny handful of ships were sunk.
Most were re-floated quite rapidly.

IDK what your definition of "re-floated means", but if it means they
were repaired and returned to service, some did get returned within
months, but others not until 1943, 1944.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

However you count them, the attack was a major Japanese victory.
In addition to those 16 ships, they destroyed 188 aircraft,
while incurring minimal losses themselves.



Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

I don't think Newt was implying that it was an overall brilliant move
by the Japanese. Taken in context with his tweet immediately before,
he was clearly warning that the world is not a safe place and we should
remember the lessons of Pearl Harbor.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:12 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per philo:
"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened
at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand
alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

Do you take issue with the accuracy of the statement?




My biggest issue is Gingrich lauding the Japanese on Pear Harbor day and
not making a statement anywhere praising American values.
That is something which cannot be debated. Anyone can view his
disgusting remarks on Twitter.

Out of the thousands of replies he got, I saw nothing but utter disgust
from his followers.


As to the accuracy of his statement ...that can be debated but it is not
at all true. If you care to read the history of WW-II it was assumed the
Japanese were going to attack ...somewhere....sometime.

From a purely tactical point , it was a blunder on the part of the
Japanese because the US fleet was mostly all out to sea.

FDR knew that the only way he could justify the US getting into the war
was by such an attack. Since the fleet was not there when the Japanese
arrived, it was almost as if he knew for sure it was going to happen.

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 9:55:29 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Though I've been keeping my political remarks to a minimum ...here is
the exact quote from Gingrich. He made this yesterday on the 75th
anniversary of Pearl Harbor:



"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


One would think the day would have been a good one to praise America but
instead he chose to praise the enemy.

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened
at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand
alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

It's not true that it was standalone. It was immediately preceded by
this tweet:

€œDecember 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous and shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,€�



Had the statement been part of of a broader analysis it might have been
a different issue

Apparently it was part of a somewhat broader analysis.

but it's false no matter how one looks at it.

How is it false? It was an attack that showed technological power
and professional brilliance. They succeeded in delivering a major
blow to the US Pacific Fleet, the list of ships sunk, aircraft
destroyed, is impressive. And they did it with very minimal losses.

There was a map found in recent research that had been filed away that
showed the exact positions of ships in the harbor sent to the Japanese
by a spy on Oahu. They knew ahead of time about where all the ships
were docked, and they also had done research about how they could use a
new technology to drop surface skimming torpedoes in the bay so they
could do more damage to the ships docked there.

The problem was all the intel wasn't shared or even located in one
central building where analysts could even interpret the information.

I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.

--
Maggie

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:17 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 9:55:29 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
Though I've been keeping my political remarks to a minimum ...here is
the exact quote from Gingrich. He made this yesterday on the 75th
anniversary of Pearl Harbor:



"

snip

Had the statement been part of of a broader analysis it might have been
a different issue

Apparently it was part of a somewhat broader analysis.


No it wasn't he made two Tweets. Twitter is not the place to posit a
broad analysis. He made no praise anywhere of American values.

but it's false no matter how one looks at it.

How is it false? It was an attack that showed technological power
and professional brilliance. They succeeded in delivering a major
blow to the US Pacific Fleet, the list of ships sunk, aircraft
destroyed, is impressive. And they did it with very minimal losses.




snip


You're never going to have a perfect strike, the US carriers being out
to sea was a lucky thing for the US. But overall, it was a stunning
military engagement. The Japanese inflicted huge damage on us, with
very minimal losses to themselves. That is a major success in any
battle.


It was not a stunning victory by any means. A minute portion of the
fleet was sunk in port. All but one ship was put back in commission a
quick order.



snip


I would agree that what Newt said wasn't appropriate on Pearl Harbor
Day, especially since he didn't at least precede it with comments
about the vets. I lost most respect for Newt when he became a Trumpet.

Amen.


I never had any respect for that do-nothing gas bag. He reminds me of
Hubert Humphrey

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:28 AM, Muggles wrote:



snip

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel were
just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until
the people researching for this current documentary found the
declassified information, and put it together with other intel for analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that
Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs.
once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the
information of increased surveillance never reached the right people who
could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese
MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not allowing
a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could
interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually
*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested,
but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general
in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.




Bottom line is that the US knew the Japanese were going to attack.
Hardly a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese.

My father was among the first of our troops to enter Nagasaki after the
war. It did not seem to work out so well for them.

Had Japan been brilliant they would have stayed the **** out.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:27 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per philo:
Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

I liked the quote in "Tora! Tora! Tora" attributed to admiral Yamamoto:
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with
a terrible resolve"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto's_sleeping_giant_quote



I did not see the movie but it was playing in Germany when I was
stationed there in 1970.

Anyway is that is what Yamamoto said he was damn right.

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:20 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:04 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/08/2016 8:55 AM, philo wrote:
...

Newt is no dummy. He undoubtedly had an end point to be made; taking
one sentence out of any context whatsoever is just doing so and looking
to take offense just for the pleasure of doing so.

It does go to illustrate that such social media isn't the place for
trying to make any point on anything of importance; there isn't space
nor time. I pay no attention to any of it from anybody and we'd be far
better off without it entirely imo.


You purposely chose to misread what I wrote.

I did NOT take Gingrich's quote out of context. That was the sum total
of his statement.

No matter how you take it, Pearl Harbor day was a bad day to praise the
Japanese attack. Gingrich made no comment anywhere in praise of American
values.

Gingrich is the biggest gutless wonder I've yet seen in Trump's cast of
characters. As a veteran I find "Armchair Generals" quite pukeable.


"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

The only thing I can say about these words is they're probably
technically true about what the Japanese actually did from a military
strategy point of view. They gathered intel for months and worked out a
plan of attack that succeeded just as they planned. They also figured
out a way to use torpedoes in the shallow waters where the ships were
docked. Previously, torpedoes couldn't be used in that environment, but
they obtained info where torpedoes were actually used to do that, so
they adapted their own torpedoes so they would skim the water for a more
effective result.

From a military perspective, the statement is true. But, from a
civilian perspective it's difficult to grant the Japanese any sort of
praise at all because of the horrific deed they accomplished.

The US was a bit naive to think Japan wouldn't follow through, and we
weren't prepared even to the point of allowing gathered intel to be
housed together so analysts could see the whole picture ahead of time.
We could have been ready.

For the US, we learned a horrible lesson.

--
Maggie

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:20:51 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:04 AM, dpb wrote:
On 12/08/2016 8:55 AM, philo wrote:
...

Newt is no dummy. He undoubtedly had an end point to be made; taking
one sentence out of any context whatsoever is just doing so and looking
to take offense just for the pleasure of doing so.

It does go to illustrate that such social media isn't the place for
trying to make any point on anything of importance; there isn't space
nor time. I pay no attention to any of it from anybody and we'd be far
better off without it entirely imo.


You purposely chose to misread what I wrote.

I did NOT take Gingrich's quote out of context. That was the sum total
of his statement.

It's not true that it was standalone. It was immediately preceded by
this tweet:

€œDecember 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous and shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,€�


Do try to at least start with the correct facts. What preceded it
shows that Newt was warning us to remember the lessons of Pearl Harbor.



No matter how you take it, Pearl Harbor day was a bad day to praise the
Japanese attack. Gingrich made no comment anywhere in praise of American
values.


Is praising American values now required in every tweet?


Gingrich is the biggest gutless wonder I've yet seen in Trump's cast of
characters. As a veteran I find "Armchair Generals" quite pukeable.

Maybe if you started with their full quotes, in context, you wouldn't
get sick as much?

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:29 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

However you count them, the attack was a major Japanese victory.
In addition to those 16 ships, they destroyed 188 aircraft,
while incurring minimal losses themselves.



Not a brilliant move by the Japanese and of all days a bad one for
Gingrich to praise the (then) enemy.

I don't think Newt was implying that it was an overall brilliant move
by the Japanese. Taken in context with his tweet immediately before,
he was clearly warning that the world is not a safe place and we should
remember the lessons of Pearl Harbor.




No matter how it slices out, a damn ****ed up thing for Newt to say on
Pearl Harbor day. Up until now, American sacrifice has been the usual
topic of the day.

Like I said, when is Newt going to praise the "911" attackers?


Newt is one messed up mother****er.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:45 AM, Muggles wrote:


snip


For the US, we learned a horrible lesson.



If you have been following the news for the past 250 years it's obvious
the US has not learned one ****ing lesson at all and probably never will.

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:41:22 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:28 AM, Muggles wrote:



snip

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel were
just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until
the people researching for this current documentary found the
declassified information, and put it together with other intel for analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that
Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs.
once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the
information of increased surveillance never reached the right people who
could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese
MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not allowing
a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could
interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually
*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested,
but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general
in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.




Bottom line is that the US knew the Japanese were going to attack.
Hardly a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese.

More rewriting of history.




My father was among the first of our troops to enter Nagasaki after the
war. It did not seem to work out so well for them.

Had Japan been brilliant they would have stayed the **** out.

I think if you tke Newt's comments in context, he was talking about
the Pearl Harbor attack, it's execution, the damage inflicted,
versus the minimal losses to the Japanese. He clearly wasn't commenting
that attacking the USA and expecting to prevail in the long
run was brilliant.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:
nerals" quite pukeable.

Maybe if you started with their full quotes, in context, you wouldn't
get sick as much?



!!!!IT WAS THE FULL ****ING QUOTE!!!!

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:34 AM, Muggles wrote:



snip
I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.




Jesus ****ing christ. Of course the US will keep making the same mistake
over and over again. How did "911" work out for you?

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:41 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:28 AM, Muggles wrote:



snip

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel were
just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until
the people researching for this current documentary found the
declassified information, and put it together with other intel for
analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that
Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs.
once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the
information of increased surveillance never reached the right people who
could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese
MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not allowing
a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could
interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually
*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested,
but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general
in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.


Bottom line is that the US knew the Japanese were going to attack.
Hardly a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese.

Even the general in charge of Pearl Harbor at the time didn't know that
there was an eminent threat because he didn't receive intel that was
vital to preparing for an eminent attack. My FIL was there that day,
and saw the planes overhead and initially had no idea what was happening
until bombs began falling. He and his work buddies were sipping on
their morning cup of coffee getting ready to do a normal days work.

He rarely talked much about what he witnessed that day, but he did tell
family about having to cut holes in ship hulls to try to save trapped
shipmates, and fishing the injured and dead out of the water. He was a
crew member of the Arizona, but not that day. He had finished his
enlistment and been discharged from the navy 2 weeks before the attack
and was still working in the shipyard as an electrical engineer.

My father was among the first of our troops to enter Nagasaki after the
war. It did not seem to work out so well for them.

Had Japan been brilliant they would have stayed the **** out.

I totally agree!

--
Maggie

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:48 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip

More rewriting of history.




Obviously you have done no reading on WW-II

I've read-up extensively especially Churchill.

Maybe you need to do some reading too?

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:48 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:45 AM, Muggles wrote:


snip


For the US, we learned a horrible lesson.



If you have been following the news for the past 250 years it's obvious
the US has not learned one ****ing lesson at all and probably never will.

I'm pretty sure the US still makes mistakes.

--
Maggie

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:53 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:41 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:28 AM, Muggles wrote:



snip

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel were
just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until
the people researching for this current documentary found the
declassified information, and put it together with other intel for
analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that
Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs.
once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the
information of increased surveillance never reached the right people who
could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese
MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not allowing
a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could
interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually
*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested,
but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general
in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.


Bottom line is that the US knew the Japanese were going to attack.
Hardly a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese.

Even the general in charge of Pearl Harbor at the time didn't know that
there was an eminent threat because he didn't receive intel that was
vital to preparing for an eminent attack. My FIL was there that day,
and saw the planes overhead and initially had no idea what was happening
until bombs began falling. He and his work buddies were sipping on
their morning cup of coffee getting ready to do a normal days work.

The intel might have been messed up or it might have been withheld on
purpose...but we all know what happened and the end result.

WW-II is now over and my whole point is that Gingrich was way out of
line. As wrong as one can be.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:55 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:48 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:45 AM, Muggles wrote:


snip


For the US, we learned a horrible lesson.



If you have been following the news for the past 250 years it's obvious
the US has not learned one ****ing lesson at all and probably never will.

I'm pretty sure the US still makes mistakes.



Ya think???

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:32:23 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:12 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per philo:
"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

As a veteran who has come from a family of veterans I am beyond sickened
at such a traitorous and disgusting remark. The above quote was a "stand
alone" quote and was not been taken out of context.

Do you take issue with the accuracy of the statement?




My biggest issue is Gingrich lauding the Japanese on Pear Harbor day and
not making a statement anywhere praising American values.
That is something which cannot be debated. Anyone can view his
disgusting remarks on Twitter.

Out of the thousands of replies he got, I saw nothing but utter disgust
from his followers.


As to the accuracy of his statement ...that can be debated but it is not
at all true. If you care to read the history of WW-II it was assumed the
Japanese were going to attack ...somewhere....sometime.

IDK what history books you're reading, but my take on it was that tensions
had increased, the US thought war with Japan was a possibility, but not
that we knew they were going to attack. Conspiracy theorists of course
claim we knew about the actual attack on Pearl Harbor ahead of time.





From a purely tactical point , it was a blunder on the part of the
Japanese because the US fleet was mostly all out to sea.

When is a world power navy ever all in port? The big miss was the
US carriers, which the Japanese thought were at Pearl, but they were
not sure and a recon mission to find out failed because it could not
be refueled. It was a decisive, stunning, tactical defeat, that's for
sure.




FDR knew that the only way he could justify the US getting into the war
was by such an attack. Since the fleet was not there when the Japanese
arrived, it was almost as if he knew for sure it was going to happen.

Here come the conspiracy theories....

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:51 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:34 AM, Muggles wrote:

snip
I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.

Jesus ****ing christ. Of course the US will keep making the same mistake
over and over again. How did "911" work out for you?

I don't think anyone thought terrorists would hijack that many planes at
the same time and fly them into buildings.

The level of horror that such people will go to has increased with each
new year.

Even the Japanese didn't attack the civilian population that day at
Pearl Harbor. But, today attacking civilians has no roadblock to it for
those who are terrorists.

--
Maggie

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 10:57 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip


As to the accuracy of his statement ...that can be debated but it is not
at all true. If you care to read the history of WW-II it was assumed the
Japanese were going to attack ...somewhere....sometime.

IDK what history books you're reading, but my take on it was that tensions
had increased, the US thought war with Japan was a possibility, but not
that we knew they were going to attack. Conspiracy theorists of course
claim we knew about the actual attack on Pearl Harbor ahead of time.





From a purely tactical point , it was a blunder on the part of the
Japanese because the US fleet was mostly all out to sea.

When is a world power navy ever all in port? The big miss was the
US carriers, which the Japanese thought were at Pearl, but they were
not sure and a recon mission to find out failed because it could not
be refueled. It was a decisive, stunning, tactical defeat, that's for
sure.




FDR knew that the only way he could justify the US getting into the war
was by such an attack. Since the fleet was not there when the Japanese
arrived, it was almost as if he knew for sure it was going to happen.

Here come the conspiracy theories....



I have no way of knowing if info was purposely withheld but every
historical account assumed the US knew the Japanese were likely to attack.

I did not come here to re-fight WWII. I did so to point out the
inappropriateness and untimeliness of Gingrich's remark. (and his
absence of praise for the US)

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 11:00 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:51 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:34 AM, Muggles wrote:

snip
I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.

Jesus ****ing christ. Of course the US will keep making the same mistake
over and over again. How did "911" work out for you?

I don't think anyone thought terrorists would hijack that many planes at
the same time and fly them into buildings.

The level of horror that such people will go to has increased with each
new year.

Even the Japanese didn't attack the civilian population that day at
Pearl Harbor. But, today attacking civilians has no roadblock to it for
those who are terrorists.




Agreed

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:56 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:53 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:41 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:28 AM, Muggles wrote:



snip

This documentary also showed how bits and pieces of unrelated intel
were
just filed away in cabinets and some of it was never viewed again until
the people researching for this current documentary found the
declassified information, and put it together with other intel for
analysis.

There was information that the Japanese had a spy on Hawaii and that
Japan had their spy start reporting harbor activity twice a week vs.
once a week. US powers that be knew there was a spy, but the
information of increased surveillance never reached the right people
who
could have prepared ahead of time for such an attack.

The government officials at the time were so paranoid that the Japanese
MIGHT find out what the US actually knew that they ended up not
allowing
a system where analysts had access to ALL the intel so they could
interpret it and come to the conclusion that Japan was actually
*prepping* to attack Hawaii. Our government knew Japan was interested,
but didn't believe they had enough solid info to even tell the general
in charge at the time there was an eminent threat.


Bottom line is that the US knew the Japanese were going to attack.
Hardly a brilliant move on the part of the Japanese.


Even the general in charge of Pearl Harbor at the time didn't know that
there was an eminent threat because he didn't receive intel that was
vital to preparing for an eminent attack. My FIL was there that day,
and saw the planes overhead and initially had no idea what was happening
until bombs began falling. He and his work buddies were sipping on
their morning cup of coffee getting ready to do a normal days work.


The intel might have been messed up or it might have been withheld on
purpose...but we all know what happened and the end result.

They say the general who was in charge of Pearl Harbor at the time was
blamed for not being ready for an attack. He left the military being
charged with dereliction of duty. He later found out that there was
vital intel that he never received, and there would have been no way for
him to know that attack was happening that day. It just made me angry
to know we could have had a fighting chance to defend that attack.

WW-II is now over and my whole point is that Gingrich was way out of
line. As wrong as one can be.

I dunno ... My husband is a bit touchy on the subject of Pearl Harbor
because his dad was a crew member, and his ashes are spread over the
Arizona. I can understand what Gingrich was saying, but at the same
time I can understand why many people are offended by him saying it, too.

--
Maggie

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 10:56 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:55 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:48 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:45 AM, Muggles wrote:


snip


For the US, we learned a horrible lesson.



If you have been following the news for the past 250 years it's obvious
the US has not learned one ****ing lesson at all and probably never
will.

I'm pretty sure the US still makes mistakes.



Ya think???

yeah ...

--
Maggie

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 11:03 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 11:00 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:51 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:34 AM, Muggles wrote:

snip
I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.

Jesus ****ing christ. Of course the US will keep making the same mistake
over and over again. How did "911" work out for you?

I don't think anyone thought terrorists would hijack that many planes at
the same time and fly them into buildings.

The level of horror that such people will go to has increased with each
new year.

Even the Japanese didn't attack the civilian population that day at
Pearl Harbor. But, today attacking civilians has no roadblock to it for
those who are terrorists.




Agreed

I do understand what you're saying about all this..

--
Maggie

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 11:06 AM, Muggles wrote:


snip
I dunno ... My husband is a bit touchy on the subject of Pearl Harbor
because his dad was a crew member, and his ashes are spread over the
Arizona. I can understand what Gingrich was saying, but at the same
time I can understand why many people are offended by him saying it, too.



For Newt to have praised the Japanese attack is no different than had he
praised the "911" attackers for a brilliant surprise move.

That he chose Dec. 7th to make his disgusting remark makes it doubly so.

[philo]

On 12/08/2016 11:10 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 11:03 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 11:00 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 12/8/2016 10:51 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:34 AM, Muggles wrote:

snip
I don't think the US will ever make that same mistake again.

Jesus ****ing christ. Of course the US will keep making the same mistake
over and over again. How did "911" work out for you?

I don't think anyone thought terrorists would hijack that many planes at
the same time and fly them into buildings.

The level of horror that such people will go to has increased with each
new year.

Even the Japanese didn't attack the civilian population that day at
Pearl Harbor. But, today attacking civilians has no roadblock to it for
those who are terrorists.




Agreed

I do understand what you're saying about all this..




OK and my apologies for all for cursing.

Even Trump never got me that upset.

When I see a traitor in government I find it difficult to hold my temper.

[Muggles[_15_]]

On 12/8/2016 11:11 AM, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 11:06 AM, Muggles wrote:


snip
I dunno ... My husband is a bit touchy on the subject of Pearl Harbor
because his dad was a crew member, and his ashes are spread over the
Arizona. I can understand what Gingrich was saying, but at the same
time I can understand why many people are offended by him saying it, too.


For Newt to have praised the Japanese attack is no different than had he
praised the "911" attackers for a brilliant surprise move.

That he chose Dec. 7th to make his disgusting remark makes it doubly so.

Maybe I try too hard, sometimes, to take apart what people say and try
to understand what they are ACTUALLY trying to communicate. Timing can
mean the difference between listeners responding one way vs. another way.

--
Maggie

[trader_4]

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 11:53:36 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 12/08/2016 10:48 AM, trader_4 wrote:


snip

More rewriting of history.




Obviously you have done no reading on WW-II

I've read-up extensively especially Churchill.

Maybe you need to do some reading too?



Let's review, shall we? You came here and made a post about
Newt's tweet:

"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."

You told us with that post:

The above quote was a "stand alone" quote and was not been taken out of context. Had the statement been part of of a broader analysis it might have been a different issue but it's false no matter how one looks at it.

In fact, the quote was preceded immediately before by this tweet:

€œDecember 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous and shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,€�


So, let's put it together in context:

€œDecember 7 is a good day to remember that the world is dangerous and shattering surprise is possible even when we have been warned,€�

"75 years ago the Japanese displayed professional brilliance and
technological power launching surprises from Hawaii to the Philippines."


And you think I'm the one that can't read or get things right?
And note this isn't the first time you've done this, it's happened
many times before, where you don't have the basic facts, or have
them wrong.