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Percival P. Cassidy
 
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Default Weird pilot light behavior

A few months back I replaced the original 3-way switches (one in the
house, the other in the garage) for our patio floodlights by 3-way
switches with pilot lights:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

All was well while the original incandescent bulbs were still in place
(except that I was disappointed in the brightness of the pilot lights).
Now, after replacing the original incandescents by compact fluorescents,
the behavior of the pilot lights has changed:

Now the switch in the house has become an "illuminated switch" rather
than a "switch with pilot light." IOW, now instead of the light being
off when the outside lights are off and on when the outside lights are
on, it is on (and much brighter than before) when the outside lights are
off and off when the outside lights are on.

The one in the garage still behaves as it did before (i.e., on dimly
when the outside lights are on, off when the outside lights are off) if
the switch in the house is in one position, but when the switch in the
house is in the other position, the light in the switch in the garage
remains off no matter what position the switch in the garage is in --
even though it still switches the outside lights on and off.

I cannot even figure out how the switches could be constructed that
would cause either of them to behave this way.

Perce
  #2   Report Post  
Tony Hwang
 
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Default

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
A few months back I replaced the original 3-way switches (one in the
house, the other in the garage) for our patio floodlights by 3-way
switches with pilot lights:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

All was well while the original incandescent bulbs were still in place
(except that I was disappointed in the brightness of the pilot lights).
Now, after replacing the original incandescents by compact fluorescents,
the behavior of the pilot lights has changed:

Now the switch in the house has become an "illuminated switch" rather
than a "switch with pilot light." IOW, now instead of the light being
off when the outside lights are off and on when the outside lights are
on, it is on (and much brighter than before) when the outside lights are
off and off when the outside lights are on.

The one in the garage still behaves as it did before (i.e., on dimly
when the outside lights are on, off when the outside lights are off) if
the switch in the house is in one position, but when the switch in the
house is in the other position, the light in the switch in the garage
remains off no matter what position the switch in the garage is in --
even though it still switches the outside lights on and off.

I cannot even figure out how the switches could be constructed that
would cause either of them to behave this way.

Perce

Hi,
Double check your wiring and read the enclosed instruction.
Tony
  #3   Report Post  
Pop
 
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Default

It sounds like you might have done two things:
1, corrected a previously existing wiring error,
and/or
2. cut the power draw by using flourescents, which
might have the affect of letting the pilot get the
power it's supposed to get.

Often those pilot lites operate simply by being placed
right across the switch. Switch off, pilot's on.
Switch on, pilot's off.
For the opposite situation, they're placed across
the load so that switch off, pilot's off; switch on,
pilot's on. If the pilot's not wired across the ENTIRE
load, then it won't be bright.

IF the pilot's a simple small incandescant, then as
little as a ten percent voltage drop will make it
noticeably dimmer and 20% is sometimes enough to stop
it from even getting hot enough to glow.

My idjumacatid guiss anyway.

Luck
Pop


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in
message ...
A few months back I replaced the original 3-way
switches (one in the house, the other in the garage)
for our patio floodlights by 3-way switches with pilot
lights:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

All was well while the original incandescent bulbs
were still in place (except that I was disappointed
in the brightness of the pilot lights). Now, after
replacing the original incandescents by compact
fluorescents, the behavior of the pilot lights has
changed:

Now the switch in the house has become an
"illuminated switch" rather than a "switch with pilot
light." IOW, now instead of the light being off when
the outside lights are off and on when the outside
lights are on, it is on (and much brighter than
before) when the outside lights are off and off when
the outside lights are on.

The one in the garage still behaves as it did before
(i.e., on dimly when the outside lights are on, off
when the outside lights are off) if the switch in the
house is in one position, but when the switch in the
house is in the other position, the light in the
switch in the garage remains off no matter what
position the switch in the garage is in --
even though it still switches the outside lights on
and off.

I cannot even figure out how the switches could be
constructed that would cause either of them to behave
this way.

Perce



  #4   Report Post  
Percival P. Cassidy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'm going to investigate further, but just to clarify:

1. There is no separate terminal on the switch for the pilot light; that
is hard-wired internally.

2. It's the pilot light (which is an LED, not neon or incandescent) that
glows with varying degrees of brightness: the CF floodlights work just
fine, just as the incandescents did.

There really aren't too many wiring possibilities: The switch has
Neutral (Silver screw), Ground (Green screw), Load/Common (Black screw),
two Travelers (Brass screws). The existing wires were two Black and one
Red, and I made new connections to the Neutral and Ground. About the
only thing I could have done wrong is mixed up the two blacks.

Perce


On 05/13/05 01:16 pm Pop tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

It sounds like you might have done two things:
1, corrected a previously existing wiring error,
and/or
2. cut the power draw by using flourescents, which
might have the affect of letting the pilot get the
power it's supposed to get.

Often those pilot lites operate simply by being placed
right across the switch. Switch off, pilot's on.
Switch on, pilot's off.
For the opposite situation, they're placed across
the load so that switch off, pilot's off; switch on,
pilot's on. If the pilot's not wired across the ENTIRE
load, then it won't be bright.

IF the pilot's a simple small incandescant, then as
little as a ten percent voltage drop will make it
noticeably dimmer and 20% is sometimes enough to stop
it from even getting hot enough to glow.

My idjumacatid guiss anyway.


A few months back I replaced the original 3-way
switches (one in the house, the other in the garage)
for our patio floodlights by 3-way switches with pilot
lights:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

All was well while the original incandescent bulbs
were still in place (except that I was disappointed
in the brightness of the pilot lights). Now, after
replacing the original incandescents by compact
fluorescents, the behavior of the pilot lights has
changed:

Now the switch in the house has become an
"illuminated switch" rather than a "switch with pilot
light." IOW, now instead of the light being off when
the outside lights are off and on when the outside
lights are on, it is on (and much brighter than
before) when the outside lights are off and off when
the outside lights are on.

The one in the garage still behaves as it did before
(i.e., on dimly when the outside lights are on, off
when the outside lights are off) if the switch in the
house is in one position, but when the switch in the
house is in the other position, the light in the
switch in the garage remains off no matter what
position the switch in the garage is in --
even though it still switches the outside lights on
and off.

I cannot even figure out how the switches could be
constructed that would cause either of them to behave
this way.

  #5   Report Post  
Doug Miller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
I'm going to investigate further, but just to clarify:

1. There is no separate terminal on the switch for the pilot light; that
is hard-wired internally.


Actually, there is: it's the neutral.

2. It's the pilot light (which is an LED, not neon or incandescent) that
glows with varying degrees of brightness: the CF floodlights work just
fine, just as the incandescents did.


Better check how your neutrals are connected. I'll bet that the neutral
connections at the switches are in *series* with the floodlights.

Maybe you could post a diagram on a web site, or in a binaries group, showing
*exactly* where *all* of the wires run, and how they are connected?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


  #6   Report Post  
Percival P. Cassidy
 
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Default

On 05/13/05 03:53 pm Doug Miller tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

I'm going to investigate further, but just to clarify:

1. There is no separate terminal on the switch for the pilot light; that
is hard-wired internally.


Actually, there is: it's the neutral.


Yes, that's true. If it weren't for the pilot light, the switch wouldn't
need a neutral connection.

2. It's the pilot light (which is an LED, not neon or incandescent) that
glows with varying degrees of brightness: the CF floodlights work just
fine, just as the incandescents did.


Better check how your neutrals are connected. I'll bet that the neutral
connections at the switches are in *series* with the floodlights.


I'm not sure that I get what you mean.

Maybe you could post a diagram on a web site, or in a binaries group, showing
*exactly* where *all* of the wires run, and how they are connected?


The problem is that I have no idea what happens to the wires once they
disappear into the wall. There could be all kinds of strange connections
that I can't see.

Perce
  #7   Report Post  
HorneTD
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
I'm going to investigate further, but just to clarify:

1. There is no separate terminal on the switch for the pilot light; that is hard-wired internally.

2. It's the pilot light (which is an LED, not neon or incandescent) that glows with varying degrees of brightness: the CF floodlights work just fine, just as the incandescents did.

There really aren't too many wiring possibilities: The switch has Neutral (Silver screw), Ground (Green screw), Load/Common (Black screw), two Travelers (Brass screws). The existing wires were two Black and one Red, and I made new connections to the Neutral and Ground. About the only thing I could have done wrong is mixed up the two blacks.

Perce


Perce
I'm working from memory but I think the problem may be that the pilot
light can only be at the far end of the circuit so that it will only
have power when the light does. Could you tell me the brand and model
number of the switch so that I can confirm that for you.
--
Tom Horne
  #8   Report Post  
Percival P. Cassidy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 05/13/05 08:01 pm HorneTD tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

I'm going to investigate further, but just to clarify:

1. There is no separate terminal on the switch for the pilot light;
that is hard-wired internally.

2. It's the pilot light (which is an LED, not neon or incandescent)
that glows with varying degrees of brightness: the CF floodlights
work just fine, just as the incandescents did.

There really aren't too many wiring possibilities: The switch has
Neutral (Silver screw), Ground (Green screw), Load/Common (Black
screw), two Travelers (Brass screws). The existing wires were two
Black and one Red, and I made new connections to the Neutral and
Ground. About the only thing I could have done wrong is mixed up the
two blacks.


I'm working from memory but I think the problem may be that the pilot
light can only be at the far end of the circuit so that it will only
have power when the light does. Could you tell me the brand and model
number of the switch so that I can confirm that for you.



The switches are both Pass & Seymour / Legrand TM83PLICC:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

The P & S Wiring Diagrams page shows one 3-way switch with a pilot light
but notes that two could be used:

http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T013-19.pdf

(The picture on the far right in the 2nd row)

But although the two switches light with different intensities when they
light at all, they both illuminate only when the switch is in one
specific position, i.e., when power is applied to the lower of the two
Traveler terminals. And in that position, whether the outside lights are
on or off depends on the position of the other switch.

Perce
  #9   Report Post  
HorneTD
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 05/13/05 08:01 pm HorneTD tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

I'm going to investigate further, but just to clarify:

1. There is no separate terminal on the switch for the pilot light;
that is hard-wired internally.

2. It's the pilot light (which is an LED, not neon or incandescent)
that glows with varying degrees of brightness: the CF floodlights
work just fine, just as the incandescents did.

There really aren't too many wiring possibilities: The switch has
Neutral (Silver screw), Ground (Green screw), Load/Common (Black
screw), two Travelers (Brass screws). The existing wires were two
Black and one Red, and I made new connections to the Neutral and
Ground. About the only thing I could have done wrong is mixed up the
two blacks.



I'm working from memory but I think the problem may be that the pilot
light can only be at the far end of the circuit so that it will only
have power when the light does. Could you tell me the brand and model
number of the switch so that I can confirm that for you.




The switches are both Pass & Seymour / Legrand TM83PLICC:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

The P & S Wiring Diagrams page shows one 3-way switch with a pilot light
but notes that two could be used:

http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T013-19.pdf

(The picture on the far right in the 2nd row)

But although the two switches light with different intensities when they
light at all, they both illuminate only when the switch is in one
specific position, i.e., when power is applied to the lower of the two
Traveler terminals. And in that position, whether the outside lights are
on or off depends on the position of the other switch.

Perce

Do you still have the wiring diagrams that are included with the switch?
IIRC the switches have to be wired differently depending on which end
of the circuit their in.
--
Tom Horne
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Percival P. Cassidy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 05/13/05 08:35 pm HorneTD tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

I'm working from memory but I think the problem may be that the pilot
light can only be at the far end of the circuit so that it will only
have power when the light does. Could you tell me the brand and
model number of the switch so that I can confirm that for you.


The switches are both Pass & Seymour / Legrand TM83PLICC:

http://www.passandseymour.com/produc...ml?c=TM83PLICC

The P & S Wiring Diagrams page shows one 3-way switch with a pilot
light but notes that two could be used:

http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/T013-19.pdf

(The picture on the far right in the 2nd row)

But although the two switches light with different intensities when
they light at all, they both illuminate only when the switch is in one
specific position, i.e., when power is applied to the lower of the two
Traveler terminals. And in that position, whether the outside lights
are on or off depends on the position of the other switch.


Do you still have the wiring diagrams that are included with the switch?
IIRC the switches have to be wired differently depending on which end
of the circuit their in.


I have the leaflets that accompanied the switches, but although the
instructions say to label the existing wires then install "per
corresponding wiring diagram," there are no "wiring diagrams" that show
how to connect one or more switches in a circuit.

A note reads: "For three-way installation, Common denotes line-in or
load out. Lighted switches may affect the performance of certain
electronic ballasts."

The diagram for this particular switch shows terminals labeled "COM" and
"NEU", two labeled "3W", and one with the standard Ground symbol.
Internal resistors are shown between each of the "3W" terminals and one
end of the lamp, the other end of which is connected to the "NEU" terminal.

Perce
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