I recently ran a new line for my soon-to-be-delivered hot tub, and
before they hook it up, I wanted to see if someone had an opinion what
I'm seeing right now.

I have a fairly old house, and the main breaker panel was full, so we
installed a "Spa Kit", which was basically a seperate box with a 50-amp
dual pole GFI breaker already included. This runs to a 60-amp
disconnect outside, about 10 feet from the tub, and then there is about
20-feet or so of remaining wire for the install.

Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

The hook-up seems pretty straight-forward, and I'm not sure what could
be causing this. The bare end for the tub has been splayed apart a bit
to make sure that the ends aren't touching. Is this happening because
I'm not "terminating" the grounding wire at the tub yet??

"The hook-up seems pretty straight-forward, and I'm not sure what could

be causing this. The bare end for the tub has been splayed apart a bit
to make sure that the ends aren't touching. Is this happening because
I'm not "terminating" the grounding wire at the tub yet?? "

No. Sounds like something is wired incorrectly at the disconnect.
Having the other end of the cable open and not connected to anything
should not produce a GFCI trip.

hmmm....it looks correct to me. The two hot wires from each run are
connected correctly. The grounds are secure, and the neutrals are
connected together.

Perhaps the disconnect itself is fauly and creating a direct short when
thrown on? Turn off at breaker disconnect wiring from disconnect and do a
continuity check across both legs off disconnect.
wrote in message
oups.com...
I recently ran a new line for my soon-to-be-delivered hot tub, and
before they hook it up, I wanted to see if someone had an opinion what
I'm seeing right now.

I have a fairly old house, and the main breaker panel was full, so we
installed a "Spa Kit", which was basically a seperate box with a 50-amp
dual pole GFI breaker already included. This runs to a 60-amp
disconnect outside, about 10 feet from the tub, and then there is about
20-feet or so of remaining wire for the install.

Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

The hook-up seems pretty straight-forward, and I'm not sure what could
be causing this. The bare end for the tub has been splayed apart a bit
to make sure that the ends aren't touching. Is this happening because
I'm not "terminating" the grounding wire at the tub yet??

Divide and Conquer!

Disconnect (completely) the 'disconnect box' from the box with the 50A
GFCI breaker, then see what happens when you close the 50A GFCI
breaker. That'll at least tell you where your trouble is...

rob

On 2 May 2005 15:54:19 -0700, wrote:

I recently ran a new line for my soon-to-be-delivered hot tub, and
before they hook it up, I wanted to see if someone had an opinion what
I'm seeing right now.

I have a fairly old house, and the main breaker panel was full, so we
installed a "Spa Kit", which was basically a seperate box with a 50-amp
dual pole GFI breaker already included. This runs to a 60-amp
disconnect outside, about 10 feet from the tub, and then there is about
20-feet or so of remaining wire for the install.

Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

The hook-up seems pretty straight-forward, and I'm not sure what could
be causing this. The bare end for the tub has been splayed apart a bit
to make sure that the ends aren't touching. Is this happening because
I'm not "terminating" the grounding wire at the tub yet??

In article .com, wrote:
hmmm....it looks correct to me. The two hot wires from each run are
connected correctly. The grounds are secure, and the neutrals are
connected together.

Re-check your wiring. You have a dead short somewhere.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Well, it's obviously something wrong. Might want to get a second opinion (in
person, someone familiar with electric). Before you go too much further.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


wrote in message
oups.com...
hmmm....it looks correct to me. The two hot wires from each run are
connected correctly. The grounds are secure, and the neutrals are
connected together.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I recently ran a new line for my soon-to-be-delivered hot tub, and
before they hook it up, I wanted to see if someone had an opinion what
I'm seeing right now.

I have a fairly old house, and the main breaker panel was full, so we
installed a "Spa Kit", which was basically a seperate box with a 50-amp
dual pole GFI breaker already included. This runs to a 60-amp
disconnect outside, about 10 feet from the tub, and then there is about
20-feet or so of remaining wire for the install.

Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

The hook-up seems pretty straight-forward, and I'm not sure what could
be causing this. The bare end for the tub has been splayed apart a bit
to make sure that the ends aren't touching. Is this happening because
I'm not "terminating" the grounding wire at the tub yet??


If you are not a qualified licensed electrician you are making a big mistake
trying to wire up your hot tub.

You could hook up something incorrectly and wind up DEAD!

This is no "do-it-yourself" job for an amateur.

For example, did you connect the grounding bar in the GFI breaker to the
proper place?

Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot in
the panel creates a dead short.

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot in
the panel creates a dead short.

How?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

According to Richard J Kinch :
Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot in
the panel creates a dead short.

Actually, what it produces is a 120V circuit with two hot wire, and two breakers
in parallel. Which won't do you a bit of good with a 240V load, because both
legs of the load are at the same voltage - applying _zero_ volts across the load.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

I have a fairly old house, and the main breaker panel was full, so we
installed a "Spa Kit", which was basically a seperate box with a 50-amp
dual pole GFI breaker already included. This runs to a 60-amp
disconnect outside, about 10 feet from the tub, and then there is about
20-feet or so of remaining wire for the install.
Everything seems fine right now, until I throw the disconnect on, at
which point it arcs at the main GFI in the house and trips the breaker
and disconnect hard.

It sounds like a short somewhere. Helpful, eh?

Since the house breaker didn't trip until you threw the final disconnect,
my guess would be the run of wire between the Spa GFI and the disconnect,
or maybe the the final dangling wire at the end for the hot tub. (I assume
the exposed ends aren't touching the ground or anything else?)

If you have a continuity meter, you should be able to disconnect the wires
at each end and check for a short.

Assuming you have the circuit wired correctly (hot leads to breakers,
ground to ground, neutral to neutral, ground bus is separated from neutral
bus in the "spa pack"), my guess would be damaged wire insulation. Probably
under a cable clamp at one of the boxes, or possibly under a cable staple
or where it passes through an opening.

I had this happen once when I overtightened a cable clamp and damaged the
wire insulation. This caused a short to the metal box and it tripped the
breaker. Everything looked fine till I pulled the thing apart and really
inspected the cable.

Easy to find with a meter, virtually impossible without one.

Anthony

Chris Lewis writes:

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot
in the panel creates a dead short.

Actually, what it produces is a 120V circuit with two hot wire, and
two breakers in parallel. Which won't do you a bit of good with a
240V load, because both legs of the load are at the same voltage -
applying _zero_ volts across the load.

Which is to say, a dead short, thus zero volts by definition.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Chris Lewis writes:

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot
in the panel creates a dead short.

Actually, what it produces is a 120V circuit with two hot wire, and
two breakers in parallel. Which won't do you a bit of good with a
240V load, because both legs of the load are at the same voltage -
applying _zero_ volts across the load.

Which is to say, a dead short, thus zero volts by definition.

No, A dead short at this type of voltage would envolve large amounts of
current. Connecting the same phase together at some point gives a difference
of 0 volts but also no current and doesnt blow fuses..

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Chris Lewis writes:

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot
in the panel creates a dead short.

Actually, what it produces is a 120V circuit with two hot wire, and
two breakers in parallel. Which won't do you a bit of good with a
240V load, because both legs of the load are at the same voltage -
applying _zero_ volts across the load.

Which is to say, a dead short, thus zero volts by definition.

Try again, Ace. A dead short is hot-to-ground, where there will be a large
current flow. In the situation you describe, both conductors are at exactly
the same potential. Therefore there will be no current flow between them, and
thus it is not a short circuit; in fact, it's not a circuit at all.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

According to Richard J Kinch :
Chris Lewis writes:

Something to check: a half-high double-pole breaker on the wrong spot
in the panel creates a dead short.

Actually, what it produces is a 120V circuit with two hot wire, and
two breakers in parallel. Which won't do you a bit of good with a
240V load, because both legs of the load are at the same voltage -
applying _zero_ volts across the load.

Which is to say, a dead short, thus zero volts by definition.

Uh, no.

Take two wires. Connect one end of each to the same hot wire.

Now measure the voltage difference between the other ends of the two wires
you've added.

Zero right?

If you connect them together, what happens? Zip.

If you connect the two wires to the ends of a 240V heater, what happens?

Nothing. It stays cold, right?

Double-pole breaker with both sections on the same leg is
the same thing.

It's not a short at all, it's simply paralleling the hot
conductor.

A dead short of 240V is when the double-pole breaker has its sections
on opposite legs, and _then_ you short the two hots together. That's
the big bang.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

A Doug Miller Classic.

Doug, in all his infinite wisdom, and via his own words has stated he
only gives info when the person asking appears to be knowledgable
enough to handle it.

In this case, the OP wants to know if his breaker is tripping because
he hasn't hooked up the ground to his Spa yet.

Doug, does this sound like someone who knows what he is doing? (And no
offense to the OP, but sir, call an electrician, PLEASE).

You just told someone to look for a dead short in a 220v line to a
SPA, for gods sake.

Doug, don't you think this is a bit of dangerous advice?

Jimmie writes:

Connecting the same phase together at some point gives a difference
of 0 volts but also no current and doesnt blow fuses..

Right, but the two conductors are still DEAD SHORTED TO EACH OTHER.

According to Matt :

You just told someone to look for a dead short in a 220v line to a
SPA, for gods sake.

Simply _looking_ for a dead short in a 240 line can easily be
done without the line energized and is perfectly safe.

Testing something by deliberately inducing a main-lug-to-main-lug
dead short isn't by definition.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Doug Miller writes:

Try again, Ace. A dead short is hot-to-ground, where there will be a
large current flow.

Two hots can be dead shorted to each other, not necessarily to ground or
neutral. This happens with the breaker misplaced as I suggested. And it
causes problems if there is a backfeed somewhere down the line.

Chris Lewis writes:

If you connect them together, what happens? Zip.

If you connect them together, they are DEAD SHORTED. Whether anything
"happens" doesn't change that fact.

According to Richard J Kinch :
Jimmie writes:

Connecting the same phase together at some point gives a difference
of 0 volts but also no current and doesnt blow fuses..

Right, but the two conductors are still DEAD SHORTED TO EACH OTHER.

By the same definition, the two ends of a single wire are "dead shorted
to each other". What useful information does that yield?

Zip.

The term you're using completely obfuscates the real result: no current
flow, no breaker trip, device simply doesn't do anything.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Simply _looking_ for a dead short in a 240 line can easily be
done without the line energized and is perfectly safe.


Ah, but did Doug tell him to deenergize the circuit? How can you be
sure the OP will do it?

But, since the breaker trips, lets just assume that the circuit is
dead, and go on a hypothetical:

What if the OP thinks he has found the short, say maybe a cable clamp
too tight.

So he yells to his wife to flip the breaker.

And then we find out that the good news is that yes, the OP found and
corrected the short.
The bad news is that some part of his body is in contact with a now
exposed circuit.
And now the homeowner is dead.

Or, perhaps the HO finds the short in the cable, repairs it with
electrical tape, installs the hot tub, and all is well.

Until the one night somebody splashed a bit too much water outside the
tub, and now there are multiple fatalities.

Can't everyone now sue Doug? Didn't Doug tell someone to go look for a
short?

Would the homeowner/and or guests be dead if Doug hadn't told him to
look for a short, and instead kept silent or told him to call an
Electrician?

Info is Info, good or bad.

If people can die from bad info, then it's also true that good info can
kill them.

Chris Lewis writes:

The term you're using completely obfuscates the real result: no current
flow, no breaker trip, device simply doesn't do anything.

Glib nonsense. It changes the diagnostic possibilities, and must be ruled
out. A backfeed somewhere would cause the behavior described.

In article . com, "Matt" wrote:
Doug, in all his infinite wisdom, and via his own words has stated he
only gives info when the person asking appears to be knowledgable
enough to handle it.

Not exactly. But it's no surprise to me to discover that subtle distinctions
are lost upon you.

In this case, the OP wants to know if his breaker is tripping because
he hasn't hooked up the ground to his Spa yet.

Doug, does this sound like someone who knows what he is doing? (And no
offense to the OP, but sir, call an electrician, PLEASE).

Possibly not.

You just told someone to look for a dead short in a 220v line to a
SPA, for gods sake.

No, Matt, I told him to re-check his connections. He doesn't have "a 220v line
to a spa" - the spa isn't hooked up yet. He has a 220v line to nothing, and he
wired it wrong somewhere.

Doug, don't you think this is a bit of dangerous advice?

Not particularly, given that he's *already*doing* the wiring. Nothing I can
say will change that.

Proving once again that Matt can't tell the difference between good advice
and bad...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Jimmie writes:

Connecting the same phase together at some point gives a difference
of 0 volts but also no current and doesnt blow fuses..

Right, but the two conductors are still DEAD SHORTED TO EACH OTHER.

No, they're not. They're connected in parallel. It's not the same thing at
all.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , (Chris Lewis) wrote:
According to Richard J Kinch :
Jimmie writes:

Connecting the same phase together at some point gives a difference
of 0 volts but also no current and doesnt blow fuses..

Right, but the two conductors are still DEAD SHORTED TO EACH OTHER.

By the same definition, the two ends of a single wire are "dead shorted
to each other". What useful information does that yield?

Zip.

The term you're using completely obfuscates the real result: no current
flow, no breaker trip, device simply doesn't do anything.

Chris, you have to cut Richard a bit of slack. In case you're not familiar
with some of his other posts, you should know that Richard comes from a planet
where it's safe to drink gasoline and breathe carbon monoxide, but borax is a
deadly poison. So it shouldn't be much of a surprise to discover that
electricity works a bit differently in his universe, too.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Doug Miller writes:

Try again, Ace. A dead short is hot-to-ground, where there will be a
large current flow.

Two hots can be dead shorted to each other, not necessarily to ground or
neutral.

Yes, they can - if the breaker is placed so that the two hots are on
*opposite* legs of the service.

This happens with the breaker misplaced as I suggested.

No, it does not. With the breaker positioned so that both poles are on the
*same* leg of the service, the two hot conductors are at exactly the same
potential. Connecting them together has no effect. Same potential = no current
flow = no circuit = no short circuit.

And it
causes problems if there is a backfeed somewhere down the line.

Oh, really? Do tell. Where is this mysterious backfeed going to come from, and
what sort of problems will it cause?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller writes:

Right, but the two conductors are still DEAD SHORTED TO EACH OTHER.

No, they're not. They're connected in parallel. It's not the same
thing at all.

My definition of "shorted" is an unintentional low-impedance connection.
Dunno what yours is.

Doug Miller writes:

And it
causes problems if there is a backfeed somewhere down the line.

Oh, really? Do tell. Where is this mysterious backfeed going to come
from, ...

Given that none of the usual explanations solve the observed behavior, the
critical diagnostician will start eliminating the plausible but odd
possibilities. I've seen this problem before.

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Doug Miller writes:

Right, but the two conductors are still DEAD SHORTED TO EACH OTHER.

No, they're not. They're connected in parallel. It's not the same
thing at all.

My definition of "shorted" is an unintentional low-impedance connection.
Dunno what yours is.

Mine is "an unintentional low-impedance connection between an ungrounded
circuit conductor and something that is grounded".


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"If you connect them together, they are DEAD SHORTED. Whether anything

"happens" doesn't change that fact. "

But the fact is the OP had a problem where he gets an arc and trip when
he closes a disconnect. That indicates a short causing high current.
That can't happen because two hots on the same leg happen to be
connected together, resulting in zero current flow. It has to be a
short from the hot to either neutral or ground.

On Wed, 04 May 2005 17:12:53 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Chris Lewis writes:

If you connect them together, what happens? Zip.

If you connect them together, they are DEAD SHORTED. Whether anything
"happens" doesn't change that fact.

Dude, you're babbling. Putting the breaker in the wrong position
will not and can-not cause a dead short. If you *HAVE* a dead short,
then putting the breaker in the wrong position, in systems where
that's possible, causes nothing to happen, where loud and exiting
things would happen were the breaker in the RIGHT place.

In OPs case, there's a breaker at the service panel, and a disconnect
in some other box downstream. When the disconnector is open,
nothing happens. When the disconnector is closed the first breaker
pops.

Now at this point, a description of this second disconnector would
be useful, But if it's built like a DPST switch, then the most likely
explanation is that it's wired sideways, with the high and low feeds
from the service panel connected to the input and output of the
same arm in the breaker. The other possibility is that the output
side of at least one arm on the breaker is connected to the nuetral
or safety ground, or shorted out somewhere. You can figure out which
by disconnecting everything except one of the hots, and putting a
voltmeter from the terminal that the OTHER hot was connected to
to ground, with the disconnect closed. If you get voltage,
you know that that's the OUTPUT of the currently hot leg.

That can't happen because two hots on the same leg happen to be
connected together, resulting in zero current flow.

Only with a single-fault hypothesis, which hasn't been tested.

Good diagnosis is hard.

Goedjn writes:

Putting the breaker in the wrong position
will not and can-not cause a dead short.

Leaving aside from the quibble about "short", only with a single-fault
hypothesis, which hasn't been tested.

Doug Miller writes:

My definition of "shorted" is an unintentional low-impedance connection.
Dunno what yours is.

Mine is "an unintentional low-impedance connection between an ungrounded
circuit conductor and something that is grounded".

OK, then you're being consistent with your definition, such as it is.

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Doug Miller writes:

My definition of "shorted" is an unintentional low-impedance connection.
Dunno what yours is.

Mine is "an unintentional low-impedance connection between an ungrounded
circuit conductor and something that is grounded".

OK, then you're being consistent with your definition, such as it is.

It's certainly a more useful definition than one which equates
parallel-connected wires with a short circuit. You certainly have some unusual
ideas; apparently, the physics on your planet is as bizarre as the toxicology.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
That can't happen because two hots on the same leg happen to be
connected together, resulting in zero current flow.

Only with a single-fault hypothesis, which hasn't been tested.

Wrong again.

If two points are at the same potential, it is _impossible_ for there to be
any current flowing between them, without regard to the number or location of
faults in the circuit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Goedjn writes:

Putting the breaker in the wrong position
will not and can-not cause a dead short.

Leaving aside from the quibble about "short", only with a single-fault
hypothesis, which hasn't been tested.

Let's see your explanation for this howler.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller writes:

It's certainly a more useful definition than one which equates
parallel-connected wires with a short circuit.

Yet yours requires a ground? Two hot phases can't short to each other?

You certainly have some unusual
ideas; apparently, the physics on your planet is as bizarre as the
toxicology.

The truth can seem bizarre, especially to the uncritical masses.

I think you hounds should take up a collection and dare me to swallow a
shot of petroleum distillate. The jejune mockery ought to have stopped by
now.