[Howard Beale]

We installed a new forced-air furnace and A/C system in our house 6 years
ago. The A/C system is Puron and until very late last summer the system
worked great; on the last cooling day of the year (more humid than hot), the
expansion coils iced up and the system would not cool.

We had it recharged right before memorial day and I asked the service guy if
loss of refrigerent was normal -- he said no, it's supposed to be a sealed
system but tiny leaks seem to happen and that I shouldn't worry too much
about it -- every 5-6 years needing a recharge isn't bad considering the
service life is probably around 20 years.

The system worked well until the past couple of weeks when it seems to have
trouble keeping up with very hot days (90F) and two days ago when it iced
up again, which leads me to believe the 5-6 year leak has become a 2 month
leak I need to have more permanently fixed.

What's the industry best practice for solving these leaks? Is the supply
line itself a culprit or is it typically just the solder joints at the
expansion coil or the coil itself? Is it a soap-and-water mission over all
the joints, or is there some high-tech tool to check for pressure losses?

What I'd like to avoid is a knee-jerk fix (like ripping apart sheet metal to
replace the coil when it doesn't need it).

The thing I'm most worried about is a leak in the line itself, since most of
it is soffited in an area of the basement that's been remodeled (a year
after the install, so likely not a source of a puncture).

[Bubba]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:13:08 -0500, "Howard Beale"
wrote:

We installed a new forced-air furnace and A/C system in our house 6 years
ago. The A/C system is Puron and until very late last summer the system
worked great; on the last cooling day of the year (more humid than hot), the
expansion coils iced up and the system would not cool.

We had it recharged right before memorial day and I asked the service guy if
loss of refrigerent was normal -- he said no, it's supposed to be a sealed
system but tiny leaks seem to happen and that I shouldn't worry too much
about it -- every 5-6 years needing a recharge isn't bad considering the
service life is probably around 20 years.

The system worked well until the past couple of weeks when it seems to have
trouble keeping up with very hot days (90F) and two days ago when it iced
up again, which leads me to believe the 5-6 year leak has become a 2 month
leak I need to have more permanently fixed.

What's the industry best practice for solving these leaks? Is the supply
line itself a culprit or is it typically just the solder joints at the
expansion coil or the coil itself? Is it a soap-and-water mission over all
the joints, or is there some high-tech tool to check for pressure losses?

What I'd like to avoid is a knee-jerk fix (like ripping apart sheet metal to
replace the coil when it doesn't need it).

The thing I'm most worried about is a leak in the line itself, since most of
it is soffited in an area of the basement that's been remodeled (a year
after the install, so likely not a source of a puncture).


First things first. Its not Puron. Puron is not a refrigerant. Its a
"trade name" for Carrier's ****. Its R-410a.
Next, your tech is a lazy dip (unless you specifically told him not to
look for the leak?). Anytime refrigerant is added, you should suspect
a leak and the customer should be advised accordingly. Then, he has
done his job. You can then tell him, "no leak check, just fill-er-up"
or you can tell him, "Yes please. I'd like you to look for the leak".
Then he can quote you a fee for the leak check. After the leak is
found, he can then quote you a repair/replacement fee.
Look for the leak in the buried soffit last. You'll almost never find
a leak there unless you know you put a screw or nail through it?
By the way, constantly recharging a system is very hard on it,
especially the compressor. After you've spent a grand or 2 on a
compressor replacement you'll stop recharging that system.
Look at the indoor coil and if it has to be cut, chopped, ripped outta
there then someone didnt do their job in using an access panel for it.
Bubba

[Travis Jordan]

Howard Beale wrote:
What's the industry best practice for solving these leaks? Is the
supply line itself a culprit or is it typically just the solder
joints at the expansion coil or the coil itself? Is it a
soap-and-water mission over all the joints, or is there some
high-tech tool to check for pressure losses?

The best practice for leak detection is to ALWAYS ask the homeowner if
they would like the leak found. "Gas-n-Go' does a disservice to the
homeowner, the industry, and the environment. Most shops have an
electronic leak detector such as this one available:

http://www.professionalequipment.com...qx/default.htm

By the way - my experience is that most leaks are from service valves,
either because the valve core is loose or because the core was damaged
by improper installation. A good set of valve caps can solve that
problem for a few bucks. The tech should check there first.

[Bubba]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:17:03 GMT, "Travis Jordan"
wrote:

Howard Beale wrote:
What's the industry best practice for solving these leaks? Is the
supply line itself a culprit or is it typically just the solder
joints at the expansion coil or the coil itself? Is it a
soap-and-water mission over all the joints, or is there some
high-tech tool to check for pressure losses?

The best practice for leak detection is to ALWAYS ask the homeowner if
they would like the leak found. "Gas-n-Go' does a disservice to the
homeowner, the industry, and the environment. Most shops have an
electronic leak detector such as this one available:

http://www.professionalequipment.com...qx/default.htm

That is a nice leak detector however they have another model similar
at half the cost (around $150-$175) and it uses 2 regular C batteries
instead of "special" rechargeables,

By the way - my experience is that most leaks are from service valves,

Oh my! You havent been around this business long, have you? I usually
never find the leak there. 95% of the time its in those wonderful
leaky (formicary corroded) evaporator coils.

either because the valve core is loose or because the core was damaged
by improper installation. A good set of valve caps can solve that
problem for a few bucks. The tech should check there first.

So you are saying you are going to "patch over" a leaking schrader
core with a "good cap" so the next poor fool has to deal with the leak
you should have fixed? Shame on you.
Bubba

[Travis Jordan]

Bubba wrote:
Oh my! You havent been around this business long, have you? I usually
never find the leak there. 95% of the time its in those wonderful
leaky (formicary corroded) evaporator coils.

Where I live the hacks don't remove the cores before they braze in the
lineset, so the valves frequently leak. I agree that formicary
corrosion is the other prevalent cause.

So you are saying you are going to "patch over" a leaking schrader
core with a "good cap" so the next poor fool has to deal with the leak
you should have fixed? Shame on you.

I wasn't suggesting that I do this... only that the OP could use this
solution if their hack doesn't have new cores in their truck. Around
here you'd be surprised how many don't.

[Howard Beale]

"Bubba" wrote in message
...


First things first. Its not Puron. Puron is not a refrigerant. Its a
"trade name" for Carrier's ****. Its R-410a.

I'm not an HVAC professional, I did not know the industry standard
designation.

Next, your tech is a lazy dip (unless you specifically told him not to
look for the leak?). Anytime refrigerant is added, you should suspect
a leak and the customer should be advised accordingly. Then, he has
done his job. You can then tell him, "no leak check, just fill-er-up"
or you can tell him, "Yes please. I'd like you to look for the leak".
Then he can quote you a fee for the leak check. After the leak is
found, he can then quote you a repair/replacement fee.

The previous tech did suggest there was a leak, but suggested it was small
and unless I was willing to pay a fee not covered by my maintenance
agreement, he said it was cheaper and easier to get it filled for nothing
about 4 times in its service life than to spend a lot of money sealing it.
He also didn't do leak detection, it would have been a seperate appointmnet.

Made sense at the time until it leaked again.

Look for the leak in the buried soffit last. You'll almost never find
a leak there unless you know you put a screw or nail through it?

The space the lines run in was an old garage finished off into a basement
not long after the new AC was installed -- years ago, I think a nail/screw
would have been noticed right away.

By the way, constantly recharging a system is very hard on it,
especially the compressor. After you've spent a grand or 2 on a
compressor replacement you'll stop recharging that system.

Is it the charging or the running low that's the problem? Charging doesn't
appear to take long and system doesn't make a different noise or appear
strained when it happens.

Look at the indoor coil and if it has to be cut, chopped, ripped outta
there then someone didnt do their job in using an access panel for it.

Perhaps there's some sheetmetal gimmick to open up the coil area, but it
doesn't look that way.

Wish I would have had your quite direct advice before I had it installed.

[Moe Jones]

Some times I have injected the refrigerant dye into a system and have come
back at a later date and scanned the system with the black light to find a
leak.

--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas

"Howard Beale" wrote in message
...
We installed a new forced-air furnace and A/C system in our house 6 years
ago. The A/C system is Puron and until very late last summer the system
worked great; on the last cooling day of the year (more humid than hot),
the expansion coils iced up and the system would not cool.

We had it recharged right before memorial day and I asked the service guy
if loss of refrigerent was normal -- he said no, it's supposed to be a
sealed system but tiny leaks seem to happen and that I shouldn't worry too
much about it -- every 5-6 years needing a recharge isn't bad considering
the service life is probably around 20 years.

The system worked well until the past couple of weeks when it seems to
have trouble keeping up with very hot days (90F) and two days ago when it
iced up again, which leads me to believe the 5-6 year leak has become a 2
month leak I need to have more permanently fixed.

What's the industry best practice for solving these leaks? Is the supply
line itself a culprit or is it typically just the solder joints at the
expansion coil or the coil itself? Is it a soap-and-water mission over
all the joints, or is there some high-tech tool to check for pressure
losses?

What I'd like to avoid is a knee-jerk fix (like ripping apart sheet metal
to replace the coil when it doesn't need it).

The thing I'm most worried about is a leak in the line itself, since most
of it is soffited in an area of the basement that's been remodeled (a year
after the install, so likely not a source of a puncture).

[Bubba]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:04:13 -0500, "Howard Beale"
wrote:

"Bubba" wrote in message
.. .


First things first. Its not Puron. Puron is not a refrigerant. Its a
"trade name" for Carrier's ****. Its R-410a.

I'm not an HVAC professional, I did not know the industry standard
designation.

I already knew that.

Next, your tech is a lazy dip (unless you specifically told him not to
look for the leak?). Anytime refrigerant is added, you should suspect
a leak and the customer should be advised accordingly. Then, he has
done his job. You can then tell him, "no leak check, just fill-er-up"
or you can tell him, "Yes please. I'd like you to look for the leak".
Then he can quote you a fee for the leak check. After the leak is
found, he can then quote you a repair/replacement fee.

The previous tech did suggest there was a leak, but suggested it was small
and unless I was willing to pay a fee not covered by my maintenance
agreement, he said it was cheaper and easier to get it filled for nothing
about 4 times in its service life than to spend a lot of money sealing it.
He also didn't do leak detection, it would have been a seperate appointmnet.

Made sense at the time until it leaked again.

As far as I practice, leaks, freon and a leaking system is not part of
a maintenance visit. My maintenance agreement visits are performed on
working systems. Systems with problems (leaks, etc.) are charged for
accordingly. The customer does of course recieve their priority
discount on these additional services.
Filled for free 4 times? Interesting concept. I pay for my
refrigerant. My customers pay for it too.
If my service tech told me he doesnt do or could not do a simple leak
detection service I would find a new service tech or company.


Look for the leak in the buried soffit last. You'll almost never find
a leak there unless you know you put a screw or nail through it?

The space the lines run in was an old garage finished off into a basement
not long after the new AC was installed -- years ago, I think a nail/screw
would have been noticed right away.

Not necessarily. Ive found mighty strange things in my time as the
others here have.

By the way, constantly recharging a system is very hard on it,
especially the compressor. After you've spent a grand or 2 on a
compressor replacement you'll stop recharging that system.

Is it the charging or the running low that's the problem? Charging doesn't
appear to take long and system doesn't make a different noise or appear
strained when it happens.

Running a system improperly charged is very hard on a system.
Overheating, coil icing etc are all variables that strain a system. It
WILL reduce the life of your system.
A compressor definately makes a different sound running properly as
opposed to one that is running low on refrigerant or in a vacuum. You
just dont listen to compressors all day long like we do to notice the
diff.

Look at the indoor coil and if it has to be cut, chopped, ripped outta
there then someone didnt do their job in using an access panel for it.

Perhaps there's some sheetmetal gimmick to open up the coil area, but it
doesn't look that way.

No gimmick. Its called Tin Snips preferably handled by someone without
a hatchet license. Open it up, install a pretty custom split door for
future access and "away you go".

Wish I would have had your quite direct advice before I had it installed.

Wish I had a couple million bucks and several large breasted, long
legged, blonde haired, naked, horny women at my "beck and call".
Bubba

[PrecisionMachinisT]

"Bubba" wrote in message
news
Filled for free 4 times? Interesting concept. I pay for my
refrigerant. My customers pay for it too.

On a warranty thing maybe, but I'd be leery of anyone giving offering "free
refrigerant"..

Suggest the acid test.

--

SVL

[Dido]

"Howard Beale" wrote in message
...
"Bubba" wrote in message
...


First things first. Its not Puron. Puron is not a refrigerant. Its a
"trade name" for Carrier's ****. Its R-410a.

I'm not an HVAC professional, I did not know the industry standard
designation.

Next, your tech is a lazy dip (unless you specifically told him not to
look for the leak?). Anytime refrigerant is added, you should suspect
a leak and the customer should be advised accordingly. Then, he has
done his job. You can then tell him, "no leak check, just fill-er-up"
or you can tell him, "Yes please. I'd like you to look for the leak".
Then he can quote you a fee for the leak check. After the leak is
found, he can then quote you a repair/replacement fee.

Not only that your tech.is lazy but his also can artist
and it is violating EPA rules of law.
he suppose to find the leak and fixed before any gas
(refrigerant) is added to the system regardless of customer
desire, he is entitle to refuses adding any gas until
system is fix, but then perhaps another scam artist
will add gas without question asked.
from DIDO


The previous tech did suggest there was a leak, but suggested it was small
and unless I was willing to pay a fee not covered by my maintenance
agreement, he said it was cheaper and easier to get it filled for nothing
about 4 times in its service life than to spend a lot of money sealing it.
He also didn't do leak detection, it would have been a seperate
appointmnet.

Made sense at the time until it leaked again.

Look for the leak in the buried soffit last. You'll almost never find
a leak there unless you know you put a screw or nail through it?

The space the lines run in was an old garage finished off into a basement
not long after the new AC was installed -- years ago, I think a nail/screw
would have been noticed right away.

By the way, constantly recharging a system is very hard on it,
especially the compressor. After you've spent a grand or 2 on a
compressor replacement you'll stop recharging that system.

Is it the charging or the running low that's the problem? Charging
doesn't appear to take long and system doesn't make a different noise or
appear strained when it happens.

Look at the indoor coil and if it has to be cut, chopped, ripped outta
there then someone didnt do their job in using an access panel for it.

Perhaps there's some sheetmetal gimmick to open up the coil area, but it
doesn't look that way.

Wish I would have had your quite direct advice before I had it installed.