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#1
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
Hello everybody,
My wife and I were prepared to make an offer on a house today before our realtor showed us the sellers disclosings that "easement for septic tank in west neighbors yard". NOW, our realtor advised me to hold off a day while she went and tried to find out more information on it (if it was recorded, and how it was recorded). She mentioned to me that if it was a true easement, my neighbor could not sue me. Now, this is my first house, and I am somewhat new to septic systems( but learning fast!!) and just figured I would ask my question in a forum like this to see if I could get any suggestions. If anyone is willing to help me out I would appreciate it. The house was built in 1948 and sits on a half acre. The strange thing is, the house is in Evansville Indiana (population 150,000) and is located within city limits, I would have thought they would have sewer lines run by now (she is also checking to see if sewer is availble). So would this be a deal breaker to many people? We love the house and the price as is, but my realtor suggested "worse case scenario" offer full price and make them put new septic system in our own yard. Any thoughts? thanks!! Andy Stocker |
#3
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
Wow, that's an interesting situation. Information is definitely your
friend here. The first question is, does the house indeed have septic or is it hooked up to a city sewer. I would not assume anything. If it does have septic, you need to know where is the tank, and where is the leach field. An easement, if properly drawn up and recorded, can give you the right to continue this arrangement, but it could be kinda awkward. You might want to have evaluations done by (a) lawyer and (b) plumber. Write back to tell us who charges more! One note of advice: if putting in a new septic system, it might be better to have them knock the cost off the selling price and have it put in yourself, if you can make the financials work. That way the work is done to your liking and specifications, not theirs. You have the greatest incentive to ensure it is done well. Speaking of which, is there a well also? -- H |
#4
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
On 13 Feb 2006 07:58:51 -0800, someone wrote:
.... She mentioned to me that if it was a true easement, my neighbor could not sue me. Sue you for what? Why would they be suing you in the first place? Did you go and sneak that septic system in there while they weren't looking? And as the saying goes, "Anybody can sue anybody for anything - the question is, CAN THEY WIN?" Nothing stops anybody from suing you for anything. There are many many things that can effect whether they could win. Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#5
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
If you're buying a house and don't know if it's on sewer or septic you
really need to stop. I'd run this by an attorney who does work in real estate, and ask them exactly what everything means cause your agent, well-meaning as they may be, don't know anything you can bank on. You may be encroaching on your neighbors yard. You may have an actual easement that lets you use their yard. You may not even be on septic for all you know, pardon my tone. Indianapolis has a LOT of septic. That's why the river is unsafe. Sixteen years with a Democrat for a governor, still the same. Two years with a Republican for a governor, he'll build a road over it. |
#6
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
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#7
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
Ok, WOW! Thanks for the replies. Here is what we learned today
1) It is on city water, but not sewer....hmmm?? 2) The neighbors did a survey in 2005 (we noticed they were renovating when we checked out our house) so they should be aware of it. 3) The sewer lines are 2 blocks away, and it is not possible to tap in. 4) There is accurate recording of the easement, and it is a true easement, whatever that means, going to find out tommorow. 5) The realtor that is selling the house contaced our realtor today and told her everything that she already found out from the water department and records, he even told her that "whatever it takes to sell this house" (strange I know) it has been on the market for 1 year Feb. 28th... I will call a plumber and real estate lawyer today and find out more, thanks again! |
#8
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
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#9
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
I'd also consider the following:
Why was the septic system placed on the neighbors property to begin with? It sounds like there is no suitable location on the property you are considering buying and I would want to know why. If there is no suitable location on your own property or connection to city sewer available, I'd be fairly reluctant to buy this property. When the current system goes kaput, I'd want the option of getting away from having another one put in the same location. And if you do want to proceed, as others have suggested, I'd make sure the easement is legally recorded and airtight, by consulting with a knowledgable attorney. The sellers should have all the info on this available too, as it's not rocket science that this will come up as a major issue in a sale. |
#10
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
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#11
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
On 13 Feb 2006 19:30:43 -0800, someone wrote:
If you do proceed (without a new system in your backyard) get a HEFTY reduction in price. Big talk. Easy to do from behind your keyboard. The price it is at NOW may (or may not) be a fair market price WITH the septic on the neighbor's land. What if the price is ALREADY thousands of dollars below that of similar houses with their septic systems on their own land? Then to get even more off, you'd be "double counting" the septic easment discount. The "market" may not even recognize any discount here. WTF is it to you if you have a right to have your septic tank on your neighbor's land???? More likely to reduce the sale price of the neighbor's place than yours, who'd want to buy a place with the other guy's septic on it? But really, what is wrong, how does it inconvenience you in any way, if you can foist your leach field off on your neighbor? The title search will verify the easement. What's the problem actually? While this is not common, I have heard of it before. Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#12
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:55:44 -0500, someone wrote:
....The history of this construction is probably that the tank was installed on a one-acre lot, later divided in two to build a second house next door. Maybe, maybe not. Sure all land was divided up from something else some time (and it also sometimes gets put back together too). Anecdotal examples: When I bought land for my house, I bought 2 adjacent lots as a package deal. The Seller said that they had found they couldn't build on the 2nd lot as (due to a seasonal watercourse) the only place they could get an approved septic system in, was over on the first lot. BUT the Town didn't allow that any more. So the 2nd lot was sort of 'thrown in' to the deal. This is land that had been divided into 'paper lots' way way back when regulations were lax and long before any building took place. HOWEVER - later on, I bought several more lots in the same Town, all contiguous. And one of them also had that "no place for the septic" thing, for the same reason. (It was therefore assessed very low as a non-buildable lot.) So what did I do? Well, I just moved the lot line. I had enought total frontage and acreage to do this. More than one way to skin the cat, as long as both lots are under the same ownership BEFORE they are built on. Afterwards, and it gets harder to be 'creative' Particularly if the "servient estate" (the one having the easement put upon it) has a mortgage on it already, and/or it can't afford to give up any size, it can be easier to 'just' put an easement on it, than to change the boundaries. It's odd but not unheard of. Before regs got stiffer, it supposedly used to be done in my Town. Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#13
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
v wrote: On 13 Feb 2006 19:30:43 -0800, someone wrote: If you do proceed (without a new system in your backyard) get a HEFTY reduction in price. Big talk. Easy to do from behind your keyboard. The price it is at NOW may (or may not) be a fair market price WITH the septic on the neighbor's land. What if the price is ALREADY thousands of dollars below that of similar houses with their septic systems on their own land? Then to get even more off, you'd be "double counting" the septic easment discount. The "market" may not even recognize any discount here. WTF is it to you if you have a right to have your septic tank on your neighbor's land???? More likely to reduce the sale price of the neighbor's place than yours, who'd want to buy a place with the other guy's septic on it? But really, what is wrong, how does it inconvenience you in any way, if you can foist your leach field off on your neighbor? The title search will verify the easement. What's the problem actually? While this is not common, I have heard of it before. What's the problem? How about when it comes time for replacement and the next door neighbor who by then may hate you for whatever reason, decides to make life as difficult as possible for you. Who knows how big the easement is, what landscaping, fencing, etc the neighbor has nearby the area, or how accessable it is. If he decides he wants to give you a hard time with regard to access for equipment, where they can pile dirt, etc, a job that could cost 15K in your own backyard could cost $50K in not only construction costs, but legal costs as the neighbor tries to limit what you can do. And I could see many neighbors trying to severly limit what you do as you dig up a stinking mess in their back yard. As an example, in your own back yard, if the contractor wants to remove dirt and put it in a pile, you can just say, OK, put it there. In the neighbors yard, the dirt might have to be moved out by wheelbarrow to be piled somewhere else. And I think the point of making sure the price reflects this, as Harry suggested, is a good idea. Unless this property is favorably priced, there are plenty of other homes to buy. I'd want to know why the septic system is on someone else's property. And if there were no way to put one on the house's own property or option to connect to city sewer, I'd move on to the next house. Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#14
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
wrote:
1) It is on city water, but not sewer....hmmm?? That's good. You really don't want a domestic water well and a septic system together on such a small lot. In fact, on a 0.5 acre lot it may be illegal to install a septic system at all. So your only options are the easement on the neighbor's property, or hook up (possibly at considerable expense) to the city sewer. 2) The neighbors did a survey in 2005 (we noticed they were renovating when we checked out our house) so they should be aware of it. Not necessarily. 3) The sewer lines are 2 blocks away, and it is not possible to tap in. Sure it's possible. But not practical. 4) There is accurate recording of the easement, and it is a true easement, whatever that means, going to find out tommorow. For you, I would say it is irrelevant. This is *not* a smart situation for a first-time home owner. I bet you don't know how many gallons the septic tank holds. And you don't need to consult a plumber, you need to consult a *septic company*. You also need to find out what company installed the tank and field, and get design records from them, so you can judge how long the tank and field are likely to continue to function. Hire a *different* septic company to do a thorough evaluation. 5) The realtor that is selling the house contaced our realtor today and told her everything that she already found out from the water department and records, he even told her that "whatever it takes to sell this house" (strange I know) it has been on the market for 1 year Feb. 28th... Ah. Does the listing agent's contract with the sellers end on the 28th? "Whatever it takes to sell this house" is not strange at all; the agent makes zero money unless the house sells during the contract. The house has been on the market for a year. Did you just start looking? Have you considered waiting to see what new properties come on the market, that you will have a chance at before they sell? Good buys usually sell fast. Una |
#15
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
Well guys, thanks for your input and suggestions!! I felt like I
owed it to you to tell you how this story ended. We decided to make an offer on the house, contingent on the fact that it passed thorough septic inspection or we could walk. Well, last week when the septic guy came out he found that the whole west end of the house (all but one bathroom) had a major problem. There is a creek that is about 300 feet away from the back of the house, and behind a tree about 200 feet from the house lay some 3" rubber tubing that came from underground. Sure enough, when we flushed toilet paper down the toilet it came out onto the ground, and the tubing was layed across the neighbors property at that!! Well, obviously it didn't pass inspection as our septic guy gave the seller an estimate of 20k to put a mound system in(the only way it could feasibly be done) and of course they declined, but they wanted to have there own septic inspection, because they thought we had "buyers remorse". So yesterday, my wife and I along with the realtor went to take some more pictures, when we noticed that a trench had been dug along the neighbors property line all the way to the creek, but the raw sewage line was still left out. At this point it became clear to us that the neighbor was the one that either disconnected it, or something else. So this guy comes out and asks us if we have any questions. He said that he was building a deck (which he is) and we he "got to diggin" he run into the tank and decided that he had to re-route "our contract houses" septic line. And then he went on to say that him and his neighbors have been running the overflow into the creek for years, and that the health department said it was ok, haha. He said he could have put a septic system in, but it would cost too much money so he just ran it out into the creek! Meanwhile, I had this whole thing of him telling this on video tape, in case we need it, but I should get my earnest money back by friday, but of course I am out my inspection money. The seller is a young girl that was relocated by GE to Michigan and she is flying back today to find out "what the hel*" is going on, I think the neighbor duped her along time ago with this septic easement crap that really is just undergound tubing that runs the crap into a creek...but NOT my problem, thank God for me that this guy decided to remodel his house and dug up the line to have it out for all to see, or we probably would have not noticed it going to the creek. A BIG LEARNING LESSON FOR US, never assume that a septic system is even in place, and I think I am going to try to stay away from septic in Evansville Indiana, at least within the city limits... PS I did what some of you suggested, got free legal advice from a real estate attorney about how to word the sales contract, and that is what is getting me out of this...we are not gunshy about buying our first house, but we are definately more aware of things now, thanks to all! Andy Stocker |
#16
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
writes:
Well guys, thanks for your input and suggestions!! I felt like I owed it to you to tell you how this story ended. Wow. Thanks for the followup. What a wild story. Glad you got out of that deal! "buyers remorse". So yesterday, my wife and I along with the realtor went to take some more pictures, when we noticed that a trench had been dug along the neighbors property line all the way to the creek, but the raw sewage line was still left out. At this point it became clear to us that the neighbor was the one that either disconnected it, or something else. This is the part I don't fully understand. So this 3" line that's flushing sewage down toward the creek is still out there? Had it always been? Or just since the neighbor dug the trench? Or what's with the trench? How are the trench and the tube related? And where is this septic tank? On the neighbor's property? Just curious--it's such a wild situation. The seller is a young girl that was relocated by GE to Michigan and she is flying back today to find out "what the hel*" is going on, I wonder if this all may become the relocation company's responsibility. Sometimes in these transactions, a relo company will buy the house from the seller somewhere in mid transaction to cut the seller out this sort of drama. I think the neighbor duped her along time ago with this septic easement crap that really is just undergound tubing that runs the crap into a creek... Dunno if that makes sense though. What motivation would the neighbor have to dupe in that vein? but NOT my problem, thank God for me that this guy decided to remodel his house and dug up the line to have it out for all to see, or we probably would have not noticed it going to the creek. Ah... got it. A BIG LEARNING LESSON FOR US, never assume that a septic system is even in place, and I think I am going to try to stay away from septic in Evansville Indiana, at least within the city limits... PS I did what some of you suggested, got free legal advice from a real estate attorney about how to word the sales contract, and that is what is getting me out of this...we are not gunshy about buying our first house, but we are definately more aware of things now, thanks to all! Very cool. Glad it worked out and you avoided getting stuck with that **** *snicker* -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#17
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
On 2 Mar 2006 04:59:46 -0800, someone wrote:
it were me, the last thing I would do is call the local code enforcement officer or health department and tell them what is going on here. Would that be the last thing or the first thing to do? Well anyway, this is one of the few times I agree with "trader", but yeah you really ought to report it and include at least some still pics. This is outrageous. What would most **** me off is that if that I would STRONGLY suspect the guy was lying to me when he claimed it was OK with the Town/City. Wonder what he would have said if you had told him, OK then you would come back with the City/Town inspector, "just to make sure" it was okay, being as you were a first time home buyer and all that.... Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#18
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
On 02 Mar 2006 12:10:29 -0600, someone wrote:
Very cool. Glad it worked out and you avoided getting stuck with that **** *snicker* Yeah really. I have said before that the mere fact of a septic on an adjacent lot is not unheard of and can be legitimate. Here, the BIG problem was not so much an adjacent lot being invlved, but that there WAS NO SEPTIC system, just dumping in the creek. (I have seen that also.) If there was a good septic system and a properly worded easement, that alone is not necessarily a deal breaker. Under THAT situation, an offer requiring the Seller to put in a new system would likely be viewed as unreasonable (since there would be a properly functioning system) and maybe even impossible, or else why was it put over on the neighboring lot anyway.... Here, the Seller is just full of (sh)it. Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#19
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
v wrote: On 2 Mar 2006 04:59:46 -0800, someone wrote: it were me, the last thing I would do is call the local code enforcement officer or health department and tell them what is going on here. Would that be the last thing or the first thing to do? LOL. I meant last in the sense of it being the final step when he's done with this mess, not in the sense of it being something I would not do. But I see how it could be taken the other way. BTW, I think we would also agree that he shouldn't call the code boys until he gets his deposit back. Given this fiasco, you would hope that would be quickly forthcoming. I'd love to hear the rest of this story. It sounds like the young lady who owns the property probably had no idea what was going on. I wonder if she even had the place inspected before buying it? This thing could take years and lots of lawyers to try to straighten out. And she's not in a very good position either. Especially when they stop her from flushing the toilet! Not a good position to be in when trying to sell the house. If she doesn't have much equity or assets, this could wind up being owned by the bank in short order. Now if the buyer really likes the house and wants to fix this right, this could become a great deal at the right price. Well anyway, this is one of the few times I agree with "trader", but yeah you really ought to report it and include at least some still pics. This is outrageous. What would most **** me off is that if that I would STRONGLY suspect the guy was lying to me when he claimed it was OK with the Town/City. Wonder what he would have said if you had told him, OK then you would come back with the City/Town inspector, "just to make sure" it was okay, being as you were a first time home buyer and all that.... Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
#20
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
Hey everybody! Thanks again for all the comments, and suggestions.
1) We did get our money back, yeaahhh! and 2) I did call the "code" boys out on the neighbor as well, I got so mad I felt justified in doing so. Now, one last question. The septic inspection, that included a 3 page report about how the system failed, and how much it would be to put a mound system in, as well as about an hour and a half on site with the owner of the septic company and another guy (although we really just stood around and watched toilet paper come out onto the ground) came with a bill for 360 bucks!! To me, this seems a bit excessive, considering the entire house inspection alone was $250. Does this sound reasonable to you guys, given the circumstances? (One being, they got me out of a house deal) He told me the day he came out to the house he had no idea what it would cost, and his wife told me on the phone a couple of days later that they never do anything like that so she wasn't sure how much they would charge either. I never agreed in writing to anything, but I figure if I was an as* and tried to take them to court I would lose anyway. I really do feel like they did a good job, but not $360 worth of a good job. I'm thinking about either calling them, letting my realtor call them (she offered to do so) or sending them a check for either 200 or 250 and tell them I would like to see a detailed breakdown of the billing, and just see what flies. What do you guys think?? THANKS A MILLION SO FAR! Andy |
#21
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
wrote: Now, one last question. The septic inspection, that included a 3 page report about how the system failed, and how much it would be to put a mound system in, as well as about an hour and a half on site with the owner of the septic company and another guy (although we really just stood around and watched toilet paper come out onto the ground) came with a bill for 360 bucks!! To me, this seems a bit excessive, They made two visits, one to figure out what was up, the other to show you. And they wrote a long report. You got a lot for $360. considering the entire house inspection alone was $250. Irrelevant. Una |
#22
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
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#23
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
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#24
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preparing an offer on house that has easement for septic tank in neighbors yard
On 7 Mar 2006 22:14:35 -0800, someone wrote:
... To me, this seems a bit excessive, considering the entire house inspection alone was $250. How many hours did the house inspection take? Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file. |
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