Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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  #1   Report Post  
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
 
Posts: n/a
Default Submersible Pump Overloading in Cold Weather

I'm looking for input on whether oil-filled motor start capacitors can
develop a 'cold failure' mode. The situation is as follows:

We started having a consistent problem with our submersible well pump since
the temperatures have started dipping to 0ºF this winter.
The first time it happened was the first week of December, when the
temperature hit zero. The water pressure in the house dropped to a trickle
and the tank pressure gauge was down to 10PSI range but the pump was not
running. After some troubleshooting, I hit the 'overload reset' and the pump
started up and all
was well... until January, when the temperature hit zero again. Then the
same scenario--no water pressure, go down and reset the pump controller and
pump starts up. All is well for the rest of the week. Until the next time
the temp hit zero or below.
There is a clear pattern. The pump overload cutout occurs when the
temperature reaches zero or below.
The pump is submerged some 220' below ground surface. The lines leading from
the well casing is 4' below surface of ground all the way to the house. That
should be below the frost line. And since 1973, we have had much colder
winters and no problems with the pump overloading and shutting down like
this.
Once I reset the controller, the pump kicks on and refills the Extrol
pressure tank at the usual rate of speed and reaches the upper cutoff
pressure and shuts off until needed again. It usually stays working until
the next bought of cold weather.
The controller box is in the cellar, which normally maintains around 66ºF,
but on the very cold nights gets down to 60ºF. I'm wondering if the
capacitors' electrical characteristics can change that much because of
temperature if the cap is marginal and on the verge of failure.
I'm at a loss as to what the cause of this behavior is. I doubt that the
pipes at 4' depth are freezing (and if they were, we would not get water at
all once reset), but the overloads only happen on the coldest nights of the
season, and with predictable consistency.
The last time this happened, I had more difficulty starting the pump. I
pressed the reset, but 5 seconds later, I heard a click and nothing
happened. I could not reset it for another two minutes, but after that time
elapsed, the reset button finally clicked in and I heard water rushing in
though the main pipe.
Does anyone have another idea as to what could be causing the overloads on
cold nights? Is it a failing start capacitor?


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



  #2   Report Post  
rijo1
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Depending on whether your pump is a Goulds or Red Jacket or other brand , you
may very well need to replace the relay contactor . The capacitor is other good
or bad and is almost never border line unless it is leaking . Also check all
wiring connections as well as fuses if fuses are used for loose connections . By
the way , the start capacitor should be a electrolytic capacitor what is not oil
filled . Oil filled caps. are used as run capacitors . Hope this helps .

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

I'm looking for input on whether oil-filled motor start capacitors can
develop a 'cold failure' mode. The situation is as follows:

We started having a consistent problem with our submersible well pump since
the temperatures have started dipping to 0ºF this winter.
The first time it happened was the first week of December, when the
temperature hit zero. The water pressure in the house dropped to a trickle
and the tank pressure gauge was down to 10PSI range but the pump was not
running. After some troubleshooting, I hit the 'overload reset' and the pump
started up and all
was well... until January, when the temperature hit zero again. Then the
same scenario--no water pressure, go down and reset the pump controller and
pump starts up. All is well for the rest of the week. Until the next time
the temp hit zero or below.
There is a clear pattern. The pump overload cutout occurs when the
temperature reaches zero or below.
The pump is submerged some 220' below ground surface. The lines leading from
the well casing is 4' below surface of ground all the way to the house. That
should be below the frost line. And since 1973, we have had much colder
winters and no problems with the pump overloading and shutting down like
this.
Once I reset the controller, the pump kicks on and refills the Extrol
pressure tank at the usual rate of speed and reaches the upper cutoff
pressure and shuts off until needed again. It usually stays working until
the next bought of cold weather.
The controller box is in the cellar, which normally maintains around 66ºF,
but on the very cold nights gets down to 60ºF. I'm wondering if the
capacitors' electrical characteristics can change that much because of
temperature if the cap is marginal and on the verge of failure.
I'm at a loss as to what the cause of this behavior is. I doubt that the
pipes at 4' depth are freezing (and if they were, we would not get water at
all once reset), but the overloads only happen on the coldest nights of the
season, and with predictable consistency.
The last time this happened, I had more difficulty starting the pump. I
pressed the reset, but 5 seconds later, I heard a click and nothing
happened. I could not reset it for another two minutes, but after that time
elapsed, the reset button finally clicked in and I heard water rushing in
though the main pipe.
Does anyone have another idea as to what could be causing the overloads on
cold nights? Is it a failing start capacitor?

--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-


  #3   Report Post  
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi,

Thanks for the quick response.
The pump is actually a Sears Best model, sold through, you guessed it,
Sears.
From what I can tell, the control box contains two capacitors and some sort
of circuit breaker (the kind with a big red pushbutton). Good to note about
the electrolytic. Being 20 years in service, it COULD just be drying out.
We have had a few incidents in recent years where the circuit breaker
feeding this box has literally detached itself from the buss. (The face
panel has been off the main breaker box as this place has been eternally
under construction, and the stiff #10AWG wire would tension against it,
causing it to sometimes pull out.) I'll check the connections and tighten if
necessary at that breaker.
There are a secondary pair of fuses in a small fuse box just above the well
pump controller. These are snugly installed.
One thing concerns me though, although this has been so for some 32 years: I
see no evidence of an earth ground on the pump controller. The only wiring
between the little fusebox above it and itself is the two 220vac legs. The
earth ground stops at the fuse box and does not follow to the pump
controller. I'm tempted to add one, just for good measure.
But the electrolytic start cap now raises my suspicions as a culprit.
Keeping in mind here that this seems to be a cold weather problem, the
potential of a loose electrical connection that fails when cold is something
I did not think of before.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



"rijo1" wrote in message
...
Depending on whether your pump is a Goulds or Red Jacket or other brand ,

you
may very well need to replace the relay contactor . The capacitor is other

good
or bad and is almost never border line unless it is leaking . Also check

all
wiring connections as well as fuses if fuses are used for loose

connections . By
the way , the start capacitor should be a electrolytic capacitor what is

not oil
filled . Oil filled caps. are used as run capacitors . Hope this helps .

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

I'm looking for input on whether oil-filled motor start capacitors can
develop a 'cold failure' mode. The situation is as follows:

We started having a consistent problem with our submersible well pump

since
the temperatures have started dipping to 0ºF this winter.
The first time it happened was the first week of December, when the
temperature hit zero. The water pressure in the house dropped to a

trickle
and the tank pressure gauge was down to 10PSI range but the pump was not
running. After some troubleshooting, I hit the 'overload reset' and the

pump
started up and all
was well... until January, when the temperature hit zero again. Then the
same scenario--no water pressure, go down and reset the pump controller

and
pump starts up. All is well for the rest of the week. Until the next

time
the temp hit zero or below.
There is a clear pattern. The pump overload cutout occurs when the
temperature reaches zero or below.
The pump is submerged some 220' below ground surface. The lines leading

from
the well casing is 4' below surface of ground all the way to the house.

That
should be below the frost line. And since 1973, we have had much colder
winters and no problems with the pump overloading and shutting down like
this.
Once I reset the controller, the pump kicks on and refills the Extrol
pressure tank at the usual rate of speed and reaches the upper cutoff
pressure and shuts off until needed again. It usually stays working

until
the next bought of cold weather.
The controller box is in the cellar, which normally maintains around

66ºF,
but on the very cold nights gets down to 60ºF. I'm wondering if the
capacitors' electrical characteristics can change that much because of
temperature if the cap is marginal and on the verge of failure.
I'm at a loss as to what the cause of this behavior is. I doubt that the
pipes at 4' depth are freezing (and if they were, we would not get water

at
all once reset), but the overloads only happen on the coldest nights of

the
season, and with predictable consistency.
The last time this happened, I had more difficulty starting the pump. I
pressed the reset, but 5 seconds later, I heard a click and nothing
happened. I could not reset it for another two minutes, but after that

time
elapsed, the reset button finally clicked in and I heard water rushing

in
though the main pipe.
Does anyone have another idea as to what could be causing the overloads

on
cold nights? Is it a failing start capacitor?

--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-




  #4   Report Post  
Rheilly Phoull
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in message
ink.net...
Hi,

Thanks for the quick response.
The pump is actually a Sears Best model, sold through, you guessed it,
Sears.
From what I can tell, the control box contains two capacitors and some

sort
of circuit breaker (the kind with a big red pushbutton). Good to note

about
the electrolytic. Being 20 years in service, it COULD just be drying out.
We have had a few incidents in recent years where the circuit breaker
feeding this box has literally detached itself from the buss. (The face
panel has been off the main breaker box as this place has been eternally
under construction, and the stiff #10AWG wire would tension against it,
causing it to sometimes pull out.) I'll check the connections and tighten

if
necessary at that breaker.
There are a secondary pair of fuses in a small fuse box just above the

well
pump controller. These are snugly installed.
One thing concerns me though, although this has been so for some 32 years:

I
see no evidence of an earth ground on the pump controller. The only wiring
between the little fusebox above it and itself is the two 220vac legs. The
earth ground stops at the fuse box and does not follow to the pump
controller. I'm tempted to add one, just for good measure.
But the electrolytic start cap now raises my suspicions as a culprit.
Keeping in mind here that this seems to be a cold weather problem, the
potential of a loose electrical connection that fails when cold is

something
I did not think of before.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



"rijo1" wrote in message
...
Depending on whether your pump is a Goulds or Red Jacket or other brand

,
you
may very well need to replace the relay contactor . The capacitor is

other
good
or bad and is almost never border line unless it is leaking . Also check

all
wiring connections as well as fuses if fuses are used for loose

connections . By
the way , the start capacitor should be a electrolytic capacitor what is

not oil
filled . Oil filled caps. are used as run capacitors . Hope this helps .

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

I'm looking for input on whether oil-filled motor start capacitors can
develop a 'cold failure' mode. The situation is as follows:

We started having a consistent problem with our submersible well pump

since
the temperatures have started dipping to 0ºF this winter.
The first time it happened was the first week of December, when the
temperature hit zero. The water pressure in the house dropped to a

trickle
and the tank pressure gauge was down to 10PSI range but the pump was

not
running. After some troubleshooting, I hit the 'overload reset' and

the
pump
started up and all
was well... until January, when the temperature hit zero again. Then

the
same scenario--no water pressure, go down and reset the pump

controller
and
pump starts up. All is well for the rest of the week. Until the next

time
the temp hit zero or below.
There is a clear pattern. The pump overload cutout occurs when the
temperature reaches zero or below.
The pump is submerged some 220' below ground surface. The lines

leading
from
the well casing is 4' below surface of ground all the way to the

house.
That
should be below the frost line. And since 1973, we have had much

colder
winters and no problems with the pump overloading and shutting down

like
this.
Once I reset the controller, the pump kicks on and refills the Extrol
pressure tank at the usual rate of speed and reaches the upper cutoff
pressure and shuts off until needed again. It usually stays working

until
the next bought of cold weather.
The controller box is in the cellar, which normally maintains around

66ºF,
but on the very cold nights gets down to 60ºF. I'm wondering if the
capacitors' electrical characteristics can change that much because of
temperature if the cap is marginal and on the verge of failure.
I'm at a loss as to what the cause of this behavior is. I doubt that

the
pipes at 4' depth are freezing (and if they were, we would not get

water
at
all once reset), but the overloads only happen on the coldest nights

of
the
season, and with predictable consistency.
The last time this happened, I had more difficulty starting the pump.

I
pressed the reset, but 5 seconds later, I heard a click and nothing
happened. I could not reset it for another two minutes, but after that

time
elapsed, the reset button finally clicked in and I heard water rushing

in
though the main pipe.
Does anyone have another idea as to what could be causing the

overloads
on
cold nights? Is it a failing start capacitor?

--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-




Given the age of the equipment IMHO change out the start cap, probably the
most practical approach would be to go through in that manner. Start with
the cap (which would cause exactly those problems). Secondly the relay,
assuming you have checked all connections.

--
Regards ..... Rheilly Phoull


  #5   Report Post  
rijo1
 
Posts: n/a
Default

One more thing to do is check the amp draw while the pump is running with an AMP
Probe to see if the pump is drawing more amps than it is supposed to . If that
is the case then the pump is worn badly .

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for the quick response.
The pump is actually a Sears Best model, sold through, you guessed it,
Sears.
From what I can tell, the control box contains two capacitors and some sort
of circuit breaker (the kind with a big red pushbutton). Good to note about
the electrolytic. Being 20 years in service, it COULD just be drying out.
We have had a few incidents in recent years where the circuit breaker
feeding this box has literally detached itself from the buss. (The face
panel has been off the main breaker box as this place has been eternally
under construction, and the stiff #10AWG wire would tension against it,
causing it to sometimes pull out.) I'll check the connections and tighten if
necessary at that breaker.
There are a secondary pair of fuses in a small fuse box just above the well
pump controller. These are snugly installed.
One thing concerns me though, although this has been so for some 32 years: I
see no evidence of an earth ground on the pump controller. The only wiring
between the little fusebox above it and itself is the two 220vac legs. The
earth ground stops at the fuse box and does not follow to the pump
controller. I'm tempted to add one, just for good measure.
But the electrolytic start cap now raises my suspicions as a culprit.
Keeping in mind here that this seems to be a cold weather problem, the
potential of a loose electrical connection that fails when cold is something
I did not think of before.

--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

"rijo1" wrote in message
...
Depending on whether your pump is a Goulds or Red Jacket or other brand ,

you
may very well need to replace the relay contactor . The capacitor is other

good
or bad and is almost never border line unless it is leaking . Also check

all
wiring connections as well as fuses if fuses are used for loose

connections . By
the way , the start capacitor should be a electrolytic capacitor what is

not oil
filled . Oil filled caps. are used as run capacitors . Hope this helps .

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:

I'm looking for input on whether oil-filled motor start capacitors can
develop a 'cold failure' mode. The situation is as follows:

We started having a consistent problem with our submersible well pump

since
the temperatures have started dipping to 0ºF this winter.
The first time it happened was the first week of December, when the
temperature hit zero. The water pressure in the house dropped to a

trickle
and the tank pressure gauge was down to 10PSI range but the pump was not
running. After some troubleshooting, I hit the 'overload reset' and the

pump
started up and all
was well... until January, when the temperature hit zero again. Then the
same scenario--no water pressure, go down and reset the pump controller

and
pump starts up. All is well for the rest of the week. Until the next

time
the temp hit zero or below.
There is a clear pattern. The pump overload cutout occurs when the
temperature reaches zero or below.
The pump is submerged some 220' below ground surface. The lines leading

from
the well casing is 4' below surface of ground all the way to the house.

That
should be below the frost line. And since 1973, we have had much colder
winters and no problems with the pump overloading and shutting down like
this.
Once I reset the controller, the pump kicks on and refills the Extrol
pressure tank at the usual rate of speed and reaches the upper cutoff
pressure and shuts off until needed again. It usually stays working

until
the next bought of cold weather.
The controller box is in the cellar, which normally maintains around

66ºF,
but on the very cold nights gets down to 60ºF. I'm wondering if the
capacitors' electrical characteristics can change that much because of
temperature if the cap is marginal and on the verge of failure.
I'm at a loss as to what the cause of this behavior is. I doubt that the
pipes at 4' depth are freezing (and if they were, we would not get water

at
all once reset), but the overloads only happen on the coldest nights of

the
season, and with predictable consistency.
The last time this happened, I had more difficulty starting the pump. I
pressed the reset, but 5 seconds later, I heard a click and nothing
happened. I could not reset it for another two minutes, but after that

time
elapsed, the reset button finally clicked in and I heard water rushing

in
though the main pipe.
Does anyone have another idea as to what could be causing the overloads

on
cold nights? Is it a failing start capacitor?

--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-





  #6   Report Post  
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"rijo1" wrote in message
...
One more thing to do is check the amp draw while the pump is running with

an AMP
Probe to see if the pump is drawing more amps than it is supposed to . If

that
is the case then the pump is worn badly .


So far, (I haven't checked with an ammeter yet) today the pump failed to
start (and it's 27ºF) and when I pressed reset, I noted that the house
lights dimmed until the reset overload protector tripped (with quite an
audible 'pop' like when you short circuit 110vac). I had to make three
attempts to get the pump to finally start.
I visually-inspected the box, having disassembled the covers and the plug in
module. It contains a bakelight-jacketed round start capacitor, and a metal
can oil-filled run cap, in addition to the pushbutton and a relay, sealed in
a bakelight case. All look as they did when new. No evidence of leaking
electrolyte, no rust, corrosion or burn marks.

My next move will be to buy replacement capacitors and see what that
accomplishes, if any.
I am worried that the pump, now 20 years old, just may BE worn out.
(Bearings? Sludge buildup?) It is January here, and the plastic pipe going
down the well would crack at these temperatures if subjected to flexing
necessary to pull the pump. The last time I did this it was in the mid 50ºF
range and we managed okay. But it is January with more snow on the way.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



  #7   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

greetings,

I went through a similar process a few years ago with my well pump
(Franklin 1-1/2 HP).
In addition to the capacitors and the overload breaker in the control
box, there was a
start relay that had developed an open winding. It would stay in the
"start" position
drawing ~11 amps for about 10 seconds until the overload breaker popped.

This happened shortly after an electrical storm where there was a strike
within a quarter
mile. I didn't see any obvious damage to the relay - no burn/scorch
marks or anything.
Very fine gauge wire is used to wind the relay coil, so it may have
opened up just because.
Your's may have developed a temperature-dependent fault.

hope that helps,
L


Mark & Mary Ann Weiss wrote:
....
So far, (I haven't checked with an ammeter yet) today the pump failed to
....
I visually-inspected the box, having disassembled the covers and the plug in
module. It contains a bakelight-jacketed round start capacitor, and a metal
can oil-filled run cap, in addition to the pushbutton and a relay, sealed in
a bakelight case.
....
My next move will be to buy replacement capacitors and see what that
....
--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

  #8   Report Post  
-=MorboTheWicked=-
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I was going through this same issue - Thanks for helping to clear my
confusion!!



  #9   Report Post  
-=MorboTheWicked=-
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I was going through this same issue - Thanks for helping to clear my
confusion!!


Posted via http://www.Ugroups.com
Your Free Web Gateway to the most popular discussion groups on Usenet
  #10   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in message
ink.net...

So far, (I haven't checked with an ammeter yet) today the pump failed to
start (and it's 27ºF) and when I pressed reset, I noted that the house
lights dimmed until the reset overload protector tripped (with quite an
audible 'pop' like when you short circuit 110vac). I had to make three
attempts to get the pump to finally start.


If you have a clamp ammeter, try measuring the amps on each leg while
starting.

N




  #11   Report Post  
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
...
greetings,

I went through a similar process a few years ago with my well pump
(Franklin 1-1/2 HP).
In addition to the capacitors and the overload breaker in the control
box, there was a
start relay that had developed an open winding. It would stay in the
"start" position
drawing ~11 amps for about 10 seconds until the overload breaker popped.

This happened shortly after an electrical storm where there was a strike
within a quarter
mile. I didn't see any obvious damage to the relay - no burn/scorch
marks or anything.
Very fine gauge wire is used to wind the relay coil, so it may have
opened up just because.
Your's may have developed a temperature-dependent fault.

hope that helps,
L


Very good suggestion. I had no idea about that relay and the possible
failure modes. I guess the best thing to do is replace the start cap and
that relay both and see if it cures the problem.

Still, at 20 years of age, even though it IS stainless steel, I wonder how
much life is left in the actual pump.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . DVD MASTERING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



  #12   Report Post  
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
 
Posts: n/a
Default


So far, (I haven't checked with an ammeter yet) today the pump failed to
start (and it's 27ºF) and when I pressed reset, I noted that the house
lights dimmed until the reset overload protector tripped (with quite an
audible 'pop' like when you short circuit 110vac). I had to make three
attempts to get the pump to finally start.


If you have a clamp ammeter, try measuring the amps on each leg while
starting.

N



I was planning to insert an AC VOM ammeter, but I don't have anything that
goes up to at least 50 amps to be safe for the surge starting current. And
even so, if the run current is ~7amps, what should the starting surge
current rise to? What's normal and what's too much?


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



  #13   Report Post  
NSM
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in message
ink.net...

I was planning to insert an AC VOM ammeter, but I don't have anything that
goes up to at least 50 amps to be safe for the surge starting current. And
even so, if the run current is ~7amps, what should the starting surge
current rise to? What's normal and what's too much?


A good rule of thumb is 6 times the run current.

Replacing the caps and the relay has to be much cheaper than replacing the
pump, and if it IS the pump the new parts may be worth keeping anyway. Do
make sure the thing is grounded, although if you have an all metal plumbing
system that's pretty much covered. I'm a great believer in bonding all metal
together - prevents much nastiness.

N

















  #14   Report Post  
Kim Clay
 
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snip

Very good suggestion. I had no idea about that relay and the possible
failure modes. I guess the best thing to do is replace the start cap and
that relay both and see if it cures the problem.


First choice would be that electrolytic start cap. Its the weakest link
in the system & its cheap to replace.

from a previous post: "The controller box is in the cellar, which
normally maintains around 66ºF, but on the very cold nights gets down to
60ºF. I'm wondering if the capacitors' electrical characteristics can
change that much because of temperature if the cap is marginal and on
the verge of failure."
Yes, it can change with temperature. If it changes from "just enough"
capacitance at 66° to "almost enough" capacitance at 60° the pump will
not start.

Still, at 20 years of age, even though it IS stainless steel, I wonder how
much life is left in the actual pump.


At 20 years replacing the start cap is a good idea even if it has not
failed (yet). The oil-filled run cap may last forever.
The start relay is fairly robust but might be going intermittent.
Replacing it now will not be a bad idea since it has had many starts
under its belt in those 20 years.

The same goes for the "reset overload protector". It seems to be
functioning correctly at the moment because it is tripping & you can
reset it - sometimes resulting in normal operation of pump. The typical
overload protector is a thermal device which "pops" when it gets hot
(due to overcurrent). Typical failure is tripping at a lower than rated
current due to aging & contact resistance. You may want to consider
replacing it even if it is not the root cause of your problem at the
moment (after you get the system back in operation) just to prevent
future problems.

How much life is left in the pump motor? It is hard to tell but each
time it trips the overload protector you are overloading the motor!
Typically the motor internal windings/connections get very hot quickly
if it does not start correctly. If given 5-10 minutes between each
attempted start they will have a chance to cool down due to thermal
conduction to the water. Repeated rapid attempts to start which result
in the overload tripping are bad. It the windings are already hot from a
previous overload & another attempt is started immediately they get even
hotter. Not good.

Enough for now... That missing ground does seems to need attention...
Please be careful

Kim
  #15   Report Post  
Jim Adney
 
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:11:14 GMT "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
wrote:

Does anyone have another idea as to what could be causing the overloads on
cold nights? Is it a failing start capacitor?


You could try putting some kind of small heat source near the
controller and capacitor, just to test your theory. Just putting a
cardboard box around it, with a 15W bulb in there would be enough to
keep it 20F warmer.

Don't get carried away. You don't want to do anything that will start
a fire.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------


  #16   Report Post  
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
 
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I was planning to insert an AC VOM ammeter, but I don't have anything

that
goes up to at least 50 amps to be safe for the surge starting current.

And
even so, if the run current is ~7amps, what should the starting surge
current rise to? What's normal and what's too much?


A good rule of thumb is 6 times the run current.

Replacing the caps and the relay has to be much cheaper than replacing the
pump, and if it IS the pump the new parts may be worth keeping anyway. Do
make sure the thing is grounded, although if you have an all metal

plumbing
system that's pretty much covered. I'm a great believer in bonding all

metal
together - prevents much nastiness.

N


Thanks for that rule of thumb. No wonder our old 5kW genset used to stall
out when the pump kicked on, or tried to.

Well, I've gone through all the connections, contacts and ground checks
earlier this evening.
Took out the main Cutler-Hammer breaker and, using a longnose pliers,
squeezed the spring clips that hold the clamp on contacts together a little
tighter and reinstalled. Then I cut up some strips of rough cardboard and
used them to burnish the pressure switch contacts while pressing the
contacts closed with a piece of wooden shim material. Next, I installed a
ground wire from the secondary fuse box above the pump controller and
connected it to the controller cabinet where the 3rd wire from the lightning
arrestor was bolted.
Then I powered everything up and used a piece of wood to push the pressure
switch contacts closed. Pump kicked on without any issues. Switched it on
and off a few times and the pump started every time. Pressure rapidly
reached 100PSI on the tank gauge and then water started gushing all over me
and the pressure switch I was operating--the pressure relief valve let go
without warning. It appears that the pump is quite capable of filling the
tank and raising the pressure to danger levels in a matter of seconds. Next,
I opened a spigot for the outdoor hose. Let the pressure drop to 40PSI and
heard the pressure switch close. Closed the valve and watched as the
pressure came back up to 59PSI and shut off. Repeated process about a dozen
times. Pump never failed to start up each time. Pressure builds from 40 to
59 in about 15 seconds.
I guess we'll see how it goes over the next month. If no more problems, I'll
consider that it was a bad connection somewhere. Perhaps one leg of 220 was
intermittent and the pump wasn't getting enough juice to kick over, causing
the other leg to overload and shut down. Hopefully that's all it was. Time
will tell!


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION • FILM SCANNING • DVD MASTERING • AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-



  #17   Report Post  
NSM
 
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"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote in message
link.net...

Next, I installed a
ground wire from the secondary fuse box above the pump controller and
connected it to the controller cabinet where the 3rd wire from the

lightning
arrestor was bolted.

....
I guess we'll see how it goes over the next month. If no more problems,

I'll
consider that it was a bad connection somewhere. Perhaps one leg of 220

was
intermittent and the pump wasn't getting enough juice to kick over,

causing
the other leg to overload and shut down. Hopefully that's all it was. Time
will tell!

....

Glad to hear it. I can't recall any case I ever heard where the problem was
caused by too much grounding. But the story about the bath, the metal coated
wallboard and the chrome towel rail would make your blood run cold.
--
N



















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