Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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meirman
 
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Default Follow-up on lawn mower with bad spark-plug threads


Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.

The motorcycle shop was willing to do it for 6 dollars for the
helicoil and iirc 30 dollars installation.

Also, on E-bay, I found a lower cost brand, Recoil Fix-a-thred (no a),
and the vendor said it was better because the insertion tool was metal
instead of plastic. And he said that the coils themselves were the
same as the other brand used. Helicoil brand? I think his buy-it-now
price was about 40 dollars and I was willing to spend the extra to
have the tool. (not sure about the price. I don't see them for sale
now, and ebay purged my Watch list of the old items (probably because
they purge completed auctions after 30 or 60 days or something.)

(although now I see a Helicoil brand kit for 12MM with less than 4
hours to go (15:16PST on Saturday) whose current bid is 20.50 dollars
plus 8 dollars shipping. This week there seems to be a lot of
helicoil stuff, but not that one guy. Last time a lot of that one
guy, but little else. )

But I also took the head off the engine to clean inside and I noticed
-- well I didn't notice enough and I'm very confused now -- that even
though the spark plug fell out if placed in halfway and turned it, if
I pushed it in all the way, there seemed to be good threads in the
head at the very bottom (of the head, not the plug).

I feel like a fool, and that I wasted your time. I apologize.
Although I am glad to learn what I did about helicoils, and maybe
telling you about the off-brand and ebay is enough to make up for
wasting your time.


Maybe sometime next summer I'll have to take the plug out for some
reason, and I'll figure out why it was so hard for me to screw in.
I've never had a problem before putting in a sparkplug and maybe I'm
not such a fool, somehow.

Meirman
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or not you are posting the same letter.
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  #2   Report Post  
meirman
 
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In sci.electronics.repair on Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:03:43 -0500 meirman
posted:


Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .


This was meant for another group, alt.home.repair. But I'm going
to think that most guys who fix electronics also fix their lawn mowers
when they need it.

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.

The motorcycle shop was willing to do it for 6 dollars for the
helicoil and iirc 30 dollars installation.

Also, on E-bay, I found a lower cost brand, Recoil Fix-a-thred (no a),
and the vendor said it was better because the insertion tool was metal
instead of plastic. And he said that the coils themselves were the
same as the other brand used. Helicoil brand? I think his buy-it-now
price was about 40 dollars and I was willing to spend the extra to
have the tool. (not sure about the price. I don't see them for sale
now, and ebay purged my Watch list of the old items (probably because
they purge completed auctions after 30 or 60 days or something.)

(although now I see a Helicoil brand kit for 12MM with less than 4
hours to go (15:16PST on Saturday) whose current bid is 20.50 dollars
plus 8 dollars shipping. This week there seems to be a lot of
helicoil stuff, but not that one guy. Last time a lot of that one
guy, but little else. )

But I also took the head off the engine to clean inside and I noticed
-- well I didn't notice enough and I'm very confused now -- that even
though the spark plug fell out if placed in halfway and turned it, if
I pushed it in all the way, there seemed to be good threads in the
head at the very bottom (of the head, not the plug).

I feel like a fool, and that I wasted your time. I apologize.
Although I am glad to learn what I did about helicoils, and maybe
telling you about the off-brand and ebay is enough to make up for
wasting your time.


Maybe sometime next summer I'll have to take the plug out for some
reason, and I'll figure out why it was so hard for me to screw in.
I've never had a problem before putting in a sparkplug and maybe I'm
not such a fool, somehow.

Meirman



Meirman
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  #3   Report Post  
Sam Goldwasser
 
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meirman writes:

Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.

The motorcycle shop was willing to do it for 6 dollars for the
helicoil and iirc 30 dollars installation.

Also, on E-bay, I found a lower cost brand, Recoil Fix-a-thred (no a),
and the vendor said it was better because the insertion tool was metal
instead of plastic. And he said that the coils themselves were the
same as the other brand used. Helicoil brand? I think his buy-it-now
price was about 40 dollars and I was willing to spend the extra to
have the tool. (not sure about the price. I don't see them for sale
now, and ebay purged my Watch list of the old items (probably because
they purge completed auctions after 30 or 60 days or something.)

(although now I see a Helicoil brand kit for 12MM with less than 4
hours to go (15:16PST on Saturday) whose current bid is 20.50 dollars
plus 8 dollars shipping. This week there seems to be a lot of
helicoil stuff, but not that one guy. Last time a lot of that one
guy, but little else. )

But I also took the head off the engine to clean inside and I noticed
-- well I didn't notice enough and I'm very confused now -- that even
though the spark plug fell out if placed in halfway and turned it, if
I pushed it in all the way, there seemed to be good threads in the
head at the very bottom (of the head, not the plug).

I feel like a fool, and that I wasted your time. I apologize.
Although I am glad to learn what I did about helicoils, and maybe
telling you about the off-brand and ebay is enough to make up for
wasting your time.


A fool for what? If some of the threads were damaged, a repair was still
needed. It wouldn't be very cool for the spark plug to pop out (probably
rather violently) half way through the lawn.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
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| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

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contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
  #4   Report Post  
NSM
 
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"meirman" wrote in message
...

Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.


If the threads are damaged, helicoil it. Don't rely on just some of the
threads. I'd have paid the shop - seems like a fair price for one plug.

N


  #5   Report Post  
BOB URZ
 
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Default



NSM wrote:

"meirman" wrote in message
...

Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.


If the threads are damaged, helicoil it. Don't rely on just some of the
threads. I'd have paid the shop - seems like a fair price for one plug.

N


If its one of the garden variety BS with valves in the block, there
is another solution. Every town has its shade tree mower shop.
Yea, that's that one with mower parts stacked up all over the yard.

Take the head off for comparison and get a used one off a donor. Then buy a
new head gasket. I got a crank that way for a 3.5 BS.
Bet you can get a used one for less than the repair kit if you hunt
deep enough.

Bob



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James Sweet
 
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"meirman" wrote in message
...
In sci.electronics.repair on Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:03:43 -0500 meirman
posted:


Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .


This was meant for another group, alt.home.repair. But I'm going
to think that most guys who fix electronics also fix their lawn mowers
when they need it.


Yep, I started out fixing things with lawnmowers, remarkably simple and
robust machines. In your case I would have replaced the cylinder head
though, usually a mower shop will have a whole pile of scrapped stuff and
would be happy to sell you a good used part.


  #7   Report Post  
meirman
 
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Default

In sci.electronics.repair on Sat, 22 Jan 2005 21:16:46 GMT "James
Sweet" posted:


"meirman" wrote in message
.. .
In sci.electronics.repair on Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:03:43 -0500 meirman
posted:


Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .


This was meant for another group, alt.home.repair. But I'm going
to think that most guys who fix electronics also fix their lawn mowers
when they need it.


Yep, I started out fixing things with lawnmowers, remarkably simple and
robust machines. In your case I would have replaced the cylinder head
though, usually a mower shop will have a whole pile of scrapped stuff and
would be happy to sell you a good used part.

Thanks for the suggestion. This was a 6 or 6.5 HP Craftsman engine,
and I don't think they've been making that for more than a few years
(so they're still new), or selling that many. I don't think I could
find one in the time I had available. (winter was coming.)

Meirman
--
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
  #8   Report Post  
meirman
 
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In sci.electronics.repair on 22 Jan 2005 15:44:34 -0500 Sam Goldwasser
posted:

meirman writes:

Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.

The motorcycle shop was willing to do it for 6 dollars for the
helicoil and iirc 30 dollars installation.

Also, on E-bay, I found a lower cost brand, Recoil Fix-a-thred (no a),
and the vendor said it was better because the insertion tool was metal
instead of plastic. And he said that the coils themselves were the
same as the other brand used. Helicoil brand? I think his buy-it-now
price was about 40 dollars and I was willing to spend the extra to
have the tool. (not sure about the price. I don't see them for sale
now, and ebay purged my Watch list of the old items (probably because
they purge completed auctions after 30 or 60 days or something.)

(although now I see a Helicoil brand kit for 12MM with less than 4
hours to go (15:16PST on Saturday) whose current bid is 20.50 dollars
plus 8 dollars shipping. This week there seems to be a lot of
helicoil stuff, but not that one guy. Last time a lot of that one
guy, but little else. )

But I also took the head off the engine to clean inside and I noticed
-- well I didn't notice enough and I'm very confused now -- that even
though the spark plug fell out if placed in halfway and turned it, if
I pushed it in all the way, there seemed to be good threads in the
head at the very bottom (of the head, not the plug).

I feel like a fool, and that I wasted your time. I apologize.
Although I am glad to learn what I did about helicoils, and maybe
telling you about the off-brand and ebay is enough to make up for
wasting your time.


A fool for what? If some of the threads were damaged, a repair was still
needed. It wouldn't be very cool for the spark plug to pop out (probably
rather violently) half way through the lawn.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/


Thank you for denying I'm a fool. But I know myself, and if it ran
for 3 minutes, I'll try to run it for 20 next summer. (That's how long
it takes to mow my lawn. And 20 for weedwacking.) So knowing how I
am, I was either a fool for bothering you, or a fool for not trying
harder to screw in the plug.

I actually just screwed it in almost finger-tight the first time I
started it, and it made one "blam" and stopped. The spark plug shot
out about 6 inches, restrained I guess by the spark plug wire. Once
the engine is really revving it will probably go farther, regardless
of the wire, but the plug is on the far side of the mower, so I'm
safe. And in practice, there is almost always no one around when I
mow the lawn. Even when there is, they've always been on the other
side of the picket fence and at least 10 or 20 feet away. Still, I
don't want to risk anyone's knees, and I might want to walk in front
of it when it's running, so I'll see how things go in the spring.

I have a mower, but I saw this at an auto junk yard (one that seems to
have more non-autos than any others I've been to), and he only wanted
10 dollars. But I don't want to invest too much until I see how I
like it, compared to the other one.

Thanks a lot.

Meirman
--
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
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meirman
 
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In sci.electronics.repair on Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:02:04 -0600 BOB URZ
posted:



NSM wrote:

"meirman" wrote in message
...

Follow-up on the engine with bad spark-plug threads that you were good
enough to advice me on a couple months ago .

The hole was definitely too small for the bigger sparkplugs, so I
decided to go with the helicoil.


If the threads are damaged, helicoil it. Don't rely on just some of the
threads. I'd have paid the shop - seems like a fair price for one plug.


Well, I may do that yet, in the spring. Thanks.

N


If its one of the garden variety BS with valves in the block, there
is another solution. Every town has its shade tree mower shop.
Yea, that's that one with mower parts stacked up all over the yard.

Take the head off for comparison and get a used one off a donor. Then buy a


Thanks for the suggestions.

I just don't know where to find a donor. I know about 5 repair shops,
but the one nearest me is expensive (at least for used mowers) and,
like I say, it's not a common engine, afaik.

Not BS and and not small.

new head gasket. I got a crank that way for a 3.5 BS.
Bet you can get a used one for less than the repair kit if you hunt
deep enough.

Bob



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Meirman
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James Sweet
 
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Yep, I started out fixing things with lawnmowers, remarkably simple and
robust machines. In your case I would have replaced the cylinder head
though, usually a mower shop will have a whole pile of scrapped stuff and
would be happy to sell you a good used part.

Thanks for the suggestion. This was a 6 or 6.5 HP Craftsman engine,
and I don't think they've been making that for more than a few years
(so they're still new), or selling that many. I don't think I could
find one in the time I had available. (winter was coming.)



Craftsman doesn't make engines, it's probably made by Tecumseh, which while
not as cross-compatible as Briggs & Stratton, it should still be easy to
find a head that will fit.




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none
 
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:36:59 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:



Yep, I started out fixing things with lawnmowers, remarkably simple and
robust machines. In your case I would have replaced the cylinder head
though, usually a mower shop will have a whole pile of scrapped stuff and
would be happy to sell you a good used part.

Thanks for the suggestion. This was a 6 or 6.5 HP Craftsman engine,
and I don't think they've been making that for more than a few years
(so they're still new), or selling that many. I don't think I could
find one in the time I had available. (winter was coming.)



Craftsman doesn't make engines, it's probably made by Tecumseh, which while
not as cross-compatible as Briggs & Stratton, it should still be easy to
find a head that will fit.

The OP could try getting a helicoil to fix his original head.
They can be gotten at NAPA or any good auto parts store.
If his craftsman mower does have the tecumseh engine it should take a
standard J19 plug, a fairly standard diameter and thread pitch.
If you go the head replacement route it gonna cost you, unless you can
find a junk engine that'll match. You will most likely have to buy a
new head gasket as well as most late models use a cheap foil laminated
paper gasket that's sure to come apart when you pull the old
head.(earlier models had a heavy metal head gasket that lasted
forever.)
If on the other hand it's a B&S get ready to shell out for new parts
as every engine they make is very parts specific and pricey.
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James Sweet
 
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forever.)
If on the other hand it's a B&S get ready to shell out for new parts
as every engine they make is very parts specific and pricey.


Huh? I've been repairing B&S engines off and on for around 15 years now and
have never run into this problem, I've used parts made in the early 70's on
engines made in the late 80's and vice-versa, never had any problem at all
finding good used or reasonably priced new parts for them, though I haven't
worked on any that were newer than early 90's, they generally don't need
more than basic tuneup parts.


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none
 
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:20:03 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


forever.)
If on the other hand it's a B&S get ready to shell out for new parts
as every engine they make is very parts specific and pricey.


Huh? I've been repairing B&S engines off and on for around 15 years now and
have never run into this problem, I've used parts made in the early 70's on
engines made in the late 80's and vice-versa, never had any problem at all
finding good used or reasonably priced new parts for them, though I haven't
worked on any that were newer than early 90's, they generally don't need
more than basic tuneup parts.


If you're referring to their earlier model sprint engine or smaller
3.5/4hp they're not too bad as long as you don't run them to hard.
Anything past about 87 is pure crap. Especially their Quantum or
larger OHV junk.
Aluminum used in high stress parts such as valves and piston arms
etc...
B&S is also good about changing tolerances in mid production to ensure
aftermarket parts jobbers suffer, not to mention how it can make the
home repair owner's life hell.
I could go on and on...
I have a huge pile of B&S motors behind my shop(I do small engine
repair).
Most suffered catastrophic engine failure do to cheap material and
shoddy craftsmanship, some right out of the box.
As for interchangability.... IF you can get a part to cross you're
lucky.
I've had experiences where internal parts from one model wouldn't fit
an exact model of the following year or series.(Mostly piston arms/
crankshaft tolerances.)
B&S likes to vary the coil sizes as well. Techumseh's generally use
one size coil.
B&S likes to use a plethora of different length and style of control
cables as well, both throttle and safety/cutoff cables.(AND charge and
arm and a leg for them.)
B&S also uses the worst carbuerators I've ever seen as well as the
most ill concieved govenor system ever applied to small
engines.(plastic carbs on their small engines that once they wear out
that's it, just toss and replace. Even the more expensive engines use
crappy Walbro carbs.)
After just hours of use most B&S engines suffer uneven engine idle as
the govenor system can't adjust for engine runout.
I have some Techumseh engines that have been going for years and
hundreds of hours.( Steel alloy pistons and cast irons sleeves)
You're lucky to get the rated hours out of a B&S.(FYI the small 3.5/4
hp mower engines that Briggs makes are generally rated at 30-40 hrs of
use. I have managed to get as much as 100 out of some of the older
models but only after tweaking the govenors down and keeping fresh oil
iin them at all times.)
As for Briggs not needing service... I do a steady business on small
engine repair and most of the dead lawn equipment that come into my
shop have B&S motors.(Burned coils in the first year, engine
explosions due to poor craftsmanship/tolerances etc...)
I mostly swap them for a tecumseh engine and have happy customers
thereafter.
It could be said that at one time Briggs did make a quality engine,
however that's simpl not true anymore.(I DO have some vintage Briggs
from the early 60's and as late as the late 70's that are very fine
engines and put Brigg's later offerings to shame both in reliability
and power.)

  #14   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
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If you're referring to their earlier model sprint engine or smaller
3.5/4hp they're not too bad as long as you don't run them to hard.
Anything past about 87 is pure crap. Especially their Quantum or
larger OHV junk.
Aluminum used in high stress parts such as valves and piston arms
etc...
B&S is also good about changing tolerances in mid production to ensure
aftermarket parts jobbers suffer, not to mention how it can make the
home repair owner's life hell.
I could go on and on...
I have a huge pile of B&S motors behind my shop(I do small engine
repair).
Most suffered catastrophic engine failure do to cheap material and
shoddy craftsmanship, some right out of the box.
As for interchangability.... IF you can get a part to cross you're
lucky.
I've had experiences where internal parts from one model wouldn't fit
an exact model of the following year or series.(Mostly piston arms/
crankshaft tolerances.)
B&S likes to vary the coil sizes as well. Techumseh's generally use
one size coil.
B&S likes to use a plethora of different length and style of control
cables as well, both throttle and safety/cutoff cables.(AND charge and
arm and a leg for them.)
B&S also uses the worst carbuerators I've ever seen as well as the
most ill concieved govenor system ever applied to small
engines.(plastic carbs on their small engines that once they wear out
that's it, just toss and replace. Even the more expensive engines use
crappy Walbro carbs.)
After just hours of use most B&S engines suffer uneven engine idle as
the govenor system can't adjust for engine runout.
I have some Techumseh engines that have been going for years and
hundreds of hours.( Steel alloy pistons and cast irons sleeves)
You're lucky to get the rated hours out of a B&S.(FYI the small 3.5/4
hp mower engines that Briggs makes are generally rated at 30-40 hrs of
use. I have managed to get as much as 100 out of some of the older
models but only after tweaking the govenors down and keeping fresh oil
iin them at all times.)
As for Briggs not needing service... I do a steady business on small
engine repair and most of the dead lawn equipment that come into my
shop have B&S motors.(Burned coils in the first year, engine
explosions due to poor craftsmanship/tolerances etc...)
I mostly swap them for a tecumseh engine and have happy customers
thereafter.
It could be said that at one time Briggs did make a quality engine,
however that's simpl not true anymore.(I DO have some vintage Briggs
from the early 60's and as late as the late 70's that are very fine
engines and put Brigg's later offerings to shame both in reliability
and power.)


Dang have they really gone that far downhill? I've had nothing but excellent
performance out of B&S engines, I particularly like the 80's-early 90's I/C
flatheads with the cast iron bore, maybe I've just been lucky but I've just
never had anything major go wrong with any of them and the carburetors have
been some of the easiest and most dependable I've ever dealt with. I've had
too limited experience with the OHV stuff, encountered them a few times on
pressure washers I've borrowed (and they worked well but were also fairly
new) but I've never had to work on them.

I've had exactly the opposite experience with Tecumseh, though I was never
surprised because last I checked (about 10 years ago) they were always about
$100 cheaper than a comparable size B&S. I've had several of them throw
rods, ignition go wonky, carburetors that wouldn't stay in tune and would
clog up every time they sat a few months, hard starting, rough idle, and it
always seemed like they were unnessesarily hard to take apart for simple
stuff (head bolts holding the cowling on?!). They were the one brand I swore
off ever buying.

Guess I better hoard the few old (mostly late 70's-early 80's) B&S engines I
have.


  #15   Report Post  
none
 
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 04:13:41 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


If you're referring to their earlier model sprint engine or smaller
3.5/4hp they're not too bad as long as you don't run them to hard.
Anything past about 87 is pure crap. Especially their Quantum or
larger OHV junk.
Aluminum used in high stress parts such as valves and piston arms
etc...
B&S is also good about changing tolerances in mid production to ensure
aftermarket parts jobbers suffer, not to mention how it can make the
home repair owner's life hell.
I could go on and on...
I have a huge pile of B&S motors behind my shop(I do small engine
repair).
Most suffered catastrophic engine failure do to cheap material and
shoddy craftsmanship, some right out of the box.
As for interchangability.... IF you can get a part to cross you're
lucky.
I've had experiences where internal parts from one model wouldn't fit
an exact model of the following year or series.(Mostly piston arms/
crankshaft tolerances.)
B&S likes to vary the coil sizes as well. Techumseh's generally use
one size coil.
B&S likes to use a plethora of different length and style of control
cables as well, both throttle and safety/cutoff cables.(AND charge and
arm and a leg for them.)
B&S also uses the worst carbuerators I've ever seen as well as the
most ill concieved govenor system ever applied to small
engines.(plastic carbs on their small engines that once they wear out
that's it, just toss and replace. Even the more expensive engines use
crappy Walbro carbs.)
After just hours of use most B&S engines suffer uneven engine idle as
the govenor system can't adjust for engine runout.
I have some Techumseh engines that have been going for years and
hundreds of hours.( Steel alloy pistons and cast irons sleeves)
You're lucky to get the rated hours out of a B&S.(FYI the small 3.5/4
hp mower engines that Briggs makes are generally rated at 30-40 hrs of
use. I have managed to get as much as 100 out of some of the older
models but only after tweaking the govenors down and keeping fresh oil
iin them at all times.)
As for Briggs not needing service... I do a steady business on small
engine repair and most of the dead lawn equipment that come into my
shop have B&S motors.(Burned coils in the first year, engine
explosions due to poor craftsmanship/tolerances etc...)
I mostly swap them for a tecumseh engine and have happy customers
thereafter.
It could be said that at one time Briggs did make a quality engine,
however that's simpl not true anymore.(I DO have some vintage Briggs
from the early 60's and as late as the late 70's that are very fine
engines and put Brigg's later offerings to shame both in reliability
and power.)


Dang have they really gone that far downhill? I've had nothing but excellent
performance out of B&S engines, I particularly like the 80's-early 90's I/C
flatheads with the cast iron bore, maybe I've just been lucky but I've just
never had anything major go wrong with any of them and the carburetors have
been some of the easiest and most dependable I've ever dealt with. I've had
too limited experience with the OHV stuff, encountered them a few times on
pressure washers I've borrowed (and they worked well but were also fairly
new) but I've never had to work on them.

Actually, the only way to get a B&S that's built for durability is to
pay through the nose, usually somewhere in the range of 500 bucks or
more, whereas Techumseh are all built rugged.
Briggs is so bad about making so many different versions of the same
model engine that most all that are in the lawn care business and have
any savy run from them.
If you take apart those 80's/90's models of Briggs you mentioned
you'll find alot of copycat design in them. Take the starter recoil
mechanics and shroud for instance. A direct copy of Tecumseh's far
superior starter recoils, except they're built with far too much
plastic to hold up for long.(what's especially bad is the use of
PLASTIC pawls instead of steel. You'll only see the steel pawls in the
top end commercial Briggs motors, whereas ALL Tecumseh starter
assemblies use stainless steel pawls.)
Briggs is especially bad about using very cheap steel in the recoil
springs, which results in some pretty bad jams once the starters have
seen a bit of wear. Once the spring folds up and jams the whole
assembly it usually takes everything else as well as the pawls will
stick in the extended position.
You can't be serious about Walbro making a good carb, considered the
worst in the business.( That from my 30 some odd years working int he
bussiness.)
Briggs is also famous for having some of the worst electronics in the
ignition system. Coils that can fry out after just a few hours.(I
NEVER replace them with oem on any of my customers machines.
I've had better luck with Stens aftermarket than original Briggs.)
B&S, as I'd mentioned is bad about varying the size and values on
their coils as well. It can be a real guessing game as to what size
coil any particular model of a Briggs might take.(IMO this is
completely uneccessary, they could easily make one size and value coil
for all their single cylinder engines instead of the dozen or so they
do.)
Even the OHV's they make for use on pressure washers are shabby.
I have the service contract for a local rental companies fleet of
pressure washers. Virtually all the one's with Briggs engines have had
catastrophic engine failures(exploding engines usually from thrown
rods and spun cranks.)
We wound up replacing them with either Honda or Toyo engines, which
sadly enough cost LESS than the cruder, simpler designed and built B&S
engines.


I've had exactly the opposite experience with Tecumseh, though I was never
surprised because last I checked (about 10 years ago) they were always about
$100 cheaper than a comparable size B&S. I've had several of them throw
rods, ignition go wonky, carburetors that wouldn't stay in tune and would
clog up every time they sat a few months, hard starting, rough idle, and it
always seemed like they were unnessesarily hard to take apart for simple
stuff (head bolts holding the cowling on?!). They were the one brand I swore
off ever buying.

In all my years I've never even heard of a Tecumseh engine having any
internal failure, remarkable considering that you'll find them in alot
of off road recreation equipment that get run very hard, even to the
point of abuse.
As for their ignition... All that could go wrong is the coil, and
Tecumseh has the best track record for endurance in that regards.(I've
even taken coils off engines that had been sitting in the parts bin
for years and had them run on much later models with no problems.)
Any carb can clog up if you let it sit long enough. the walbro's are
worse for that in my opinion.
As for rough idle, you can't be serious? The only way to get any kind
of faulty idle on a Tecumseh carb is if you try and run them with a
rotted primer bulb or dirty gas.(Tecumseh uses a counterbalanced
govenor system that literally makes for a rock steady idle, unlike
Briggs which are famous for up and down idle states.)

That said, ask yourself how many hours on a given day you actually run
your briggs engine. If you just cut your own yard at most an hour? And
what one a week tops?
Remember when I told you about the actual ratings that Briggs gives
for expected engine life for their engines? On consumer models at best
50 hours.(pathetic really)
And yes IF you really take care of them you can get more, most owners
don't though which is where I get SO much business.( most scoff at the
thought of changing the oil at least every two use cycles which is
paramount for keeping an engine clean.)
I have customers in the lawn care business that on a usual day will
run their Tecumseh engines for as long as 7-8 hours, some even more.
On average they'll get as much as 5 seasons out of them, your'e lucky
to get one out of a B&S at that level of work load.
Many of my customers use commercial duty Snappers which almost always
come with Briggs engines and which crap out the first year.
I replace them with a comparable Tecumseh and will seldom see them
come back for service for as much as three years, then it's usually a
tune up and replacement of the primer bulb.
I have several old Craftsman mowers that i keep around for loaners on
warranty work, all run Tecumseh and the oldest one is from the early
80's and still going strong.

Guess I better hoard the few old (mostly late 70's-early 80's) B&S engines I
have.

Yeah, as anything later will dissapoint you.
As I said I have a huge pile of junk Briggs behind the shop.(once or
twice a year it means a trip to the scrap yard just to get rid of
them.)



  #16   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
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You can't be serious about Walbro making a good carb, considered the
worst in the business.( That from my 30 some odd years working int he
bussiness.)


I don't know if they were made by Walbro or someone else, the ones I'm
referring to are the aluminum Pulse-Jet carbs, only one needle valve to
adjust, I've just never come across one that was much trouble.


Briggs is also famous for having some of the worst electronics in the
ignition system. Coils that can fry out after just a few hours.(I
NEVER replace them with oem on any of my customers machines.
I've had better luck with Stens aftermarket than original Briggs.)
B&S, as I'd mentioned is bad about varying the size and values on
their coils as well. It can be a real guessing game as to what size
coil any particular model of a Briggs might take.(IMO this is
completely uneccessary, they could easily make one size and value coil
for all their single cylinder engines instead of the dozen or so they
do.)


I guess things must have changed, I've never run into that problem, I
particularly like the Magnetron electronic ignition, have that on a couple
motors (one of which replaced a Tecumseh that threw a rod on a tiller) and
it runs MUCH better than the old motor ever did, granted the old one was
from the 70s.


Even the OHV's they make for use on pressure washers are shabby.
I have the service contract for a local rental companies fleet of
pressure washers. Virtually all the one's with Briggs engines have had
catastrophic engine failures(exploding engines usually from thrown
rods and spun cranks.)
We wound up replacing them with either Honda or Toyo engines, which
sadly enough cost LESS than the cruder, simpler designed and built B&S
engines.


Honda also makes a very good engine, though I've found them a little tougher
to work on, but again very good.

In all my years I've never even heard of a Tecumseh engine having any
internal failure, remarkable considering that you'll find them in alot
of off road recreation equipment that get run very hard, even to the
point of abuse.


I had the one with the thrown rod around for a while because I fixed it by
epoxing up the hole in the crankcase and replacing the rod, but it never did
idle very well, the carb would clog and finally the ignition coil failed so
I junked it.

As for rough idle, you can't be serious?


Yes I'm serious, I'm beginning to think we might live on different planets
though, or perhaps the climate difference accounts for this?

of faulty idle on a Tecumseh carb is if you try and run them with a
rotted primer bulb or dirty gas.(Tecumseh uses a counterbalanced
govenor system that literally makes for a rock steady idle, unlike
Briggs which are famous for up and down idle states.)


Primer bulb always seemed silly to me, I've had a couple of them rot out, as
far as I know they're the only common 4 stroke that needs one.

That said, ask yourself how many hours on a given day you actually run
your briggs engine. If you just cut your own yard at most an hour? And
what one a week tops?
Remember when I told you about the actual ratings that Briggs gives
for expected engine life for their engines? On consumer models at best
50 hours.(pathetic really)



50 hours is pretty bad, I know my mower must have many times more though,
it's at least 20 years old and has had a lot of use, engine still runs
strong though. I change the oil every year though, I doubt most people do
that.

Sounds like perhaps things have changed though, so much has, noticed the
Fluke meter we have at work felt a little lighter than my own and the switch
is a little sloppy and not as solid feeling, flipped it over and it's made
in China! Usually that wouldn't surprise me but this is a *Fluke*! If I
wanted a Chinese multimeter I'd go buy one at Fry's for $25. Fluke is top of
the line and can command the much higher price due to a reputation of top
quality and being US-made.


  #17   Report Post  
Bob Shuman
 
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"none" wrote in message
...

Experience w/ Techumseh and B&S so noted, but cut for brevity...

That said, ask yourself how many hours on a given day you actually run
your briggs engine. If you just cut your own yard at most an hour? And
what one a week tops?
Remember when I told you about the actual ratings that Briggs gives
for expected engine life for their engines? On consumer models at best
50 hours.(pathetic really)


I am surprised by the B&S 50 hour life rating. Can you cite a reference for
this number?

And yes IF you really take care of them you can get more, most owners
don't though which is where I get SO much business.( most scoff at the
thought of changing the oil at least every two use cycles which is
paramount for keeping an engine clean.)


Can you please clarify what is meant by "use cycle" above. IIRC, my Honda
lawnmower engine user manual stated that under normal homeowner use (every 4
days for 1 hour for me from Spring through Fall) the engine oil was to be
changed after the 1st hour of use and then after every 25 hours. I'm just
not sure what a "use cycle" means in terms of cumulative hours of operation.

Thanks in advance for the response.




  #18   Report Post  
none
 
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:39:11 -0600, "Bob Shuman"
wrote:


"none" wrote in message
.. .

Experience w/ Techumseh and B&S so noted, but cut for brevity...

That said, ask yourself how many hours on a given day you actually run
your briggs engine. If you just cut your own yard at most an hour? And
what one a week tops?
Remember when I told you about the actual ratings that Briggs gives
for expected engine life for their engines? On consumer models at best
50 hours.(pathetic really)


I am surprised by the B&S 50 hour life rating. Can you cite a reference for
this number?

Just check any of the specs in the parts manuals on replacement
engines. They'll give a max hour rating for warranty purposes,
something the salesman at the parts counter doesn't want you to see.
After all 200-500 bucks for a engine that if run for 1-2 days non-stop
is past it's warranty.
If you stop and think about the time it actually takes you to cut the
average size yard with a walk behind mower it's what an hour at the
most?
And the average homeowner cut their yard around 6-7 times during the
average summer. This would give you about 3-4 years on the engine
warranty. Heck most homeowners toss their mowers off after one
summer's use.( They'll push it under the edge of the house or worse
yet just park it in the corner of the back yard leaving it exposed to
the elements. Worse yet they leave gas in it over the winter, then
expect it to start first pull in the spring. Bad gas, soupy, burnt oil
and a dirty plug anf they're suprised when it doesn't start.)
I can drive around in early spring and pick up mowers off the street
where homeowners put them out with the trash, simply because the
failed to take proper care of them over the winter months and are
either too stupid or lazy to do the required service to get them going
again.( Not to mention too damn cheap to pay a service shop even as
little as 20 bucks for a tune up.)
Yet they'll toss it out and go and plop down another 190-300 bucks on
a new one, which of course will be tossed out in a years time as well.

Lawn care professionals know about the very limited time warranty on
engines today and choose the brand and models that'll give them the
best value.
Once upon a time virtually all the pro grade snappers came with a
commercial Briggs engine. Not true anymore. just go by your local
commercial lawnmower supply shop and you'll see the top of the line
Snappers usually have Tecumseh. They only offer B&S on some to sell to
those who are loyal Briggs fans.( I started out many moons ago as a
B&S fan when I started cutting yards in my youth, and stayed loyal
untill just the past decade or so. After enough years being trained in
engine repair and even more working on them brand loyalty WILL take a
back seat to plain facts. There was atime when like many I saw
Tecumseh's as being cheap in construction. The roles have been
reversed though, just look at all the Craftsman brand mowers that'r
still going strong after years of use.)

And yes IF you really take care of them you can get more, most owners
don't though which is where I get SO much business.( most scoff at the
thought of changing the oil at least every two use cycles which is
paramount for keeping an engine clean.)


Can you please clarify what is meant by "use cycle" above. IIRC, my Honda
lawnmower engine user manual stated that under normal homeowner use (every 4
days for 1 hour for me from Spring through Fall) the engine oil was to be
changed after the 1st hour of use and then after every 25 hours. I'm just
not sure what a "use cycle" means in terms of cumulative hours of operation.

A use cycle is one cutting.(Time of engine operation is just one
factor to consider in wear. The real damage to the oil occurs AFTER
you turn the engine off. All the trapped gas vapors condense down into
the oil pan and break the oil down, which is why it better to change
the oil before each use, not after.)
I change the oil in my home mower before each use, or every two
cuttings at the most. On US made single cylinder simple air cooled
engines the oil is the lifeblood and dirty oil will greatly shorten
engine life.
However on a Honda you can get much longer use on an oil change,
they're built that much better.( Honda/Toyo machine and polish the
internal facings to a much higher degree and use a more porous steel,
which holds oil on the cylinder walls to a greater degree than their
American counterparts.)
I've had several SX series Honda mower and find them to be far
superior to domestic offerings. That's why they genrally cost much
more than the run of the mill, they'll give you a lifetime of
dependable use with the proper care.(I've always let my neighbors talk
me out of them. They know of my rep as a honest repairman and come to
me for good lawn equipment at a fair price.)
I've always been a big fan of Honda, Virtually all my higway bikes in
the past 40 some-odd years have been Honda with a couple of BMWs for
good measure.(I had one Goldwing that I put nearly 300 thousand miles
on before retiring it.)


Thanks in advance for the response.




  #19   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
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I change the oil in my home mower before each use, or every two
cuttings at the most. On US made single cylinder simple air cooled
engines the oil is the lifeblood and dirty oil will greatly shorten
engine life.



Now that's a little ridiculous, change the oil after every use? That's like
those people who change the oil in their car every 1000 miles. I've dealt
with enough 25-30 year old air cooled engines that were still in good
mechanical condition after obviously many hundreds of hours of use,
generally they had the oil changed occasionally but certainly not after
every use. Once a season is perfectly adaquate unless you're running 8 hours
a day, I change mine every year when I put it away for the winter.

I just checked in an old (1970's I guess) B&S service manual I have and they
specify oil changes ever 25 hours of operation so I probably end up changing
mine a little more often than that, but as you say oil does get combustion
byproducts in it, same reason a car driven all the time on the highway can
go a lot more miles between changes than one driven around town.

As for the lifetime ratings, the number of hours the warranty guarantees an
engine will last, and the number of hours it's expected to or actually will
last are two drastically different things, I would be absolutely shocked if
even the cheapest most shoddy lawnmower engine out there wore out sooner
than a couple hundred hours even if the oil was never changed (as is often
the case).


  #20   Report Post  
Ken Weitzel
 
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none wrote:

snip

of faulty idle on a Tecumseh carb is if you try and run them with a
rotted primer bulb or dirty gas.(Tecumseh uses a counterbalanced
govenor system that literally makes for a rock steady idle, unlike
Briggs which are famous for up and down idle states.)


Odd. I have exactly the opposite. B&S lawnmower is the
worst engine I've ever had, but idles so smooth so slow
that I can't imagine why it keeps running. Just does.

Tecumseh snow king engine is the best engine I've ever had.
Starts at -40 degrees with just a single tug on the starter.
Electric start, and even though I'm an old guy, I don't bother
plugging it in. But at anything less than full open, it
idles up and down so bad it's scary. Goes from what sounds
like wide open to almost stalling and back again. Over and over.
Looking at the spring on (or near) the carb, it goes from
tightly stretched to so sloppy and loose that it looks like
it should fall off.

Ken



  #21   Report Post  
Bob Shuman
 
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I agree with James that changing lawnmower engine oil every two cuttings is
obsessive! Also, I do not know where you live, but can't imagine anywhere
that you only cut the lawn 6-7 times a year. I live in Chicago and cut my
lawn once a week from the first week of April till about the end of April.
From then till Mid-July, it gets cut on a 4 day interval because if I go
longer I can't get through the lawn because the mower will die (I use a
Honda mulching mower to avoid bagging). It gets cut once a week again till
the first week of September when I go back to 4 day intervals till October.
I figure I get about 50 hours a year on the mower so I change the oil twice
a season.

My last Honda lasted 15 years, but eventually threw a rod. I picked up
another Honda that someone threw into the garbage. It was about 10 years
old and looked terrible. The oil was thick as molasses and it still had 5+
year old gas in the carb and tank. I flushed the tank, removed the carb,
cleaned the pickup with a needle and cleaned/regapped the plug. I then had
to change the oil three times to get it to look clean. I've now used the
old Honda for the last two seasons without any problems.

My wife hates when I scrounge something from the garbage, but I just hate to
see something that still has life in it tossed into the landfill.

Bob

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:%c_Kd.444$bH.282@trnddc02...

I change the oil in my home mower before each use, or every two
cuttings at the most. On US made single cylinder simple air cooled
engines the oil is the lifeblood and dirty oil will greatly shorten
engine life.



Now that's a little ridiculous, change the oil after every use? That's

like
those people who change the oil in their car every 1000 miles. I've dealt
with enough 25-30 year old air cooled engines that were still in good
mechanical condition after obviously many hundreds of hours of use,
generally they had the oil changed occasionally but certainly not after
every use. Once a season is perfectly adaquate unless you're running 8

hours
a day, I change mine every year when I put it away for the winter.



  #22   Report Post  
WbSearch
 
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Unfortunately one of you statements is contradictory. Polishing the cylinder
walls to a much higher degree lessens the chance of oil to lubricate as it
would be wiped off, not having the minor 'indentations' to adhere to; unless it
is a pressure lubricated interface. A porous metal cannot be polished more
than a less porous metal just by definition. A bearing surface profilameter
test would confirm this, a standard surface finish test would not be appropiate
for this situation.

On a similar subject, I know of many automotive engines/transmissions that were
in service far beyond the 12,000 mile warranty. Manufacturing warranty has no
direct correlation to component/subsystem design criteria. It is a marketing
decision. At least it was for the automotive/marine manufacturing companies I
worked with.
  #23   Report Post  
none
 
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On 31 Jan 2005 14:26:32 GMT, (WbSearch) wrote:

Unfortunately one of you statements is contradictory. Polishing the cylinder
walls to a much higher degree lessens the chance of oil to lubricate as it
would be wiped off, not having the minor 'indentations' to adhere to; unless it
is a pressure lubricated interface. A porous metal cannot be polished more
than a less porous metal just by definition. A bearing surface profilameter
test would confirm this, a standard surface finish test would not be appropiate
for this situation.

Wrong. The smoother the bore the less friction, oil or no oil.
There is no such thing as a minor indentation in a cylinder sleeve.
The surface characteristics are on the microscopic level. i.e in the
grain of the steel.
If you really new anything about engine mechanics you'd know about the
oil ring, which holds oil in between itself and the compression rings
for lubrication on the downward stroke.
The simple engine we're talking about use a slinger which has higher
rpm ensuring the cylinder/sleeve is aways being splashed with oil as
well.
As for qualities in the metals used for the sleeves/ friction
surfaces, yes porosity DOES make a difference, as the oil migrates
into the grain of the metal. Especially as it reaches operating
temperatures.
Go back to metalurgy 101 if you're going to try and discuss design
theory in regards to internal combustion engines with me.( I've got
over four decades of experince working on power plants from
jet/turbine engines on down.)

On a similar subject, I know of many automotive engines/transmissions that were
in service far beyond the 12,000 mile warranty. Manufacturing warranty has no
direct correlation to component/subsystem design criteria. It is a marketing
decision. At least it was for the automotive/marine manufacturing companies I
worked with.


Sure, it's all about the Warranty. Which is a business decision, which
in the case of Briggs and Stratton is partially influenced by the fact
that for the past 15 or so years they've been having their motors made
in the Pacific rim and I might add for as little outlay as possible.
Might explain why so many lock up right out the box.

  #24   Report Post  
none
 
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 06:26:39 GMT, Ken Weitzel
wrote:



none wrote:

snip

of faulty idle on a Tecumseh carb is if you try and run them with a
rotted primer bulb or dirty gas.(Tecumseh uses a counterbalanced
govenor system that literally makes for a rock steady idle, unlike
Briggs which are famous for up and down idle states.)



Odd. I have exactly the opposite. B&S lawnmower is the
worst engine I've ever had, but idles so smooth so slow
that I can't imagine why it keeps running. Just does.

Depends on the year of that Briggs. The early B&S were designed for
low rpm and high compression, just the opposite of their newer models.
Of course they'll put along just fine at low rpms as the compression
is probably alot lower with age. They're just not going to have alot
of power on heavy load.
Tecumseh snow king engine is the best engine I've ever had.
Starts at -40 degrees with just a single tug on the starter.
Electric start, and even though I'm an old guy, I don't bother
plugging it in. But at anything less than full open, it
idles up and down so bad it's scary. Goes from what sounds
like wide open to almost stalling and back again. Over and over.
Looking at the spring on (or near) the carb, it goes from
tightly stretched to so sloppy and loose that it looks like
it should fall off.

If you're getting up and down on that Techumseh it may be because the
govenor springs are reversed.
This can happen with some installs on power equipment where the maker
of whatever it is(mini bike, snow plow, tiller etc...) purchases the
engines and does the install themselves.
The particular device it's going on can require particular govenor
springs or mods on the links.(I've gotten a fair amount of such in
where all I had to do was reverse the springs and all was fine.)
On the govenor arm on the side of the engine there's two holes for the
link and the spring.
The link goes into the top hole and them to the carbuerator. There'll
also be two holes on the top of the butterfly link, the link goes in
the outside hole in most apps. Also make sure the link isn't reversed
as this'll cause inconsistent throttle operation.
The spring goes into the bottom hole on the govenor arm and then to
the control arm on the throttle plate assembly. Or in some of the
older models that have fixed throttle to a metal tang on the intake.

If you're still having problems please give me some more details and
I'll look it up in my parts manuals.

Ken


  #25   Report Post  
none
 
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 05:25:15 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


I change the oil in my home mower before each use, or every two
cuttings at the most. On US made single cylinder simple air cooled
engines the oil is the lifeblood and dirty oil will greatly shorten
engine life.



Now that's a little ridiculous, change the oil after every use? That's like
those people who change the oil in their car every 1000 miles. I've dealt
with enough 25-30 year old air cooled engines that were still in good
mechanical condition after obviously many hundreds of hours of use,
generally they had the oil changed occasionally but certainly not after
every use. Once a season is perfectly adaquate unless you're running 8 hours
a day, I change mine every year when I put it away for the winter.

I just checked in an old (1970's I guess) B&S service manual I have and they
specify oil changes ever 25 hours of operation so I probably end up changing
mine a little more often than that, but as you say oil does get combustion
byproducts in it, same reason a car driven all the time on the highway can
go a lot more miles between changes than one driven around town.

As for the lifetime ratings, the number of hours the warranty guarantees an
engine will last, and the number of hours it's expected to or actually will
last are two drastically different things, I would be absolutely shocked if
even the cheapest most shoddy lawnmower engine out there wore out sooner
than a couple hundred hours even if the oil was never changed (as is often
the case).

Not ridiculous to change it that often at all. As I did say most of
the engines I service go all day long and they get fresh oil at the
start of every day.
You'r also not considering that this is 30 wt non-detergent which
suffers viscoscity breakdown after just a couple of hours.
If you look at alot of those Briggs motors you'll noticed they're
mounted with the head to the REAR on the mower. This is absolutetly
the worst orientation for allowing air flow over the hottest part of
the engine. This only speeds up the process of breaking down the oil.

Yes in normal situations I'd agree about warranty vs. actual engine
life but I've had nothing but bad experiences with Briggs for the past
few years.
I've seen many burn up right out of the box, after running them for
just a few minutes.(AND yes we did put oil in them, every B&S
replacement engine come with a small bottle of Their own certified
oil.)
This is nothing more than shabby workmanship, plain and simple.
(All the ones I've gotten have been manufactured in the orient. A real
crime considering they tend to cost more than the other brands.)



  #26   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
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Wrong.


snip
..
If you really new anything about engine mechanics you'd know about the...


snip

Go back to metalurgy 101 if you're going to try and discuss...


snip


Starting to sound a bit like a troll... You'd think he owns a bunch of stock
in a certain small engine manufacture...


  #27   Report Post  
Bob Shuman
 
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His knowledge of the subject has convinced me that he knows a thing or two
about internal combustion engines used in mowers and such and that current
Briggs and Stratton engines are of poor quality. Prior to reading these
posts I had assumed B&S were good engines based on my personal experience
with them, but then again my current 5KW generator and lawnmowers I used
prior to purchasing the Honda were all made in the mid-80's before they
moved production to the Far East.

That said, I still think that lawn mower oil changes any more frequently
than two or possibly three times a year for my use (~50 hours per year)
would be overkill.

Bob

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:sCDLd.1275$eD4.622@trnddc05...

Wrong.


snip
.
If you really new anything about engine mechanics you'd know about

the...

snip

Go back to metalurgy 101 if you're going to try and discuss...


snip

Starting to sound a bit like a troll... You'd think he owns a bunch of

stock
in a certain small engine manufacture...



  #28   Report Post  
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Sorry if I hit a nerve about the metal comment. I do believe the poster has a
lot of experience with small engines and am not trying to discredit him, I just
disagre with his theory and the specific statement. FTR, I did take metalurgy
101, 202 and 303 during my BSME with automotive and fluids minors, which by the
way included lubrication properties/theories between dissimilar metal
interfaces. I will let it drop.
  #29   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
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"Bob Shuman" wrote in message
...
His knowledge of the subject has convinced me that he knows a thing or two
about internal combustion engines used in mowers and such and that current
Briggs and Stratton engines are of poor quality. Prior to reading these
posts I had assumed B&S were good engines based on my personal experience
with them, but then again my current 5KW generator and lawnmowers I used
prior to purchasing the Honda were all made in the mid-80's before they
moved production to the Far East.



Yeah you're probably right, his later post mentioned being manufactured in
the orient, I haven't verified that but if it's true then I'm sure he's
right, B&S has turned to crap like so many other once great brands. A few
others come to mind, Chicago Pneumatic, Delta, and a number of other
formerly very good equipment makers are now just a name slapped on cheap
imported goods. By the time production is shifted to the far east, the cost
cutting has already gone as far as they can reasonably take it and then the
quality control goes to heck.


So what about the other formerly very good motors? Kohler? Wisconsin? I've
seen a lot of those on commercial/industrial equipment in the past.


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On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 04:55:31 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:


"Bob Shuman" wrote in message
...
His knowledge of the subject has convinced me that he knows a thing or two
about internal combustion engines used in mowers and such and that current
Briggs and Stratton engines are of poor quality. Prior to reading these
posts I had assumed B&S were good engines based on my personal experience
with them, but then again my current 5KW generator and lawnmowers I used
prior to purchasing the Honda were all made in the mid-80's before they
moved production to the Far East.



Yeah you're probably right, his later post mentioned being manufactured in
the orient, I haven't verified that but if it's true then I'm sure he's
right, B&S has turned to crap like so many other once great brands. A few
others come to mind, Chicago Pneumatic, Delta, and a number of other
formerly very good equipment makers are now just a name slapped on cheap
imported goods. By the time production is shifted to the far east, the cost
cutting has already gone as far as they can reasonably take it and then the
quality control goes to heck.


So what about the other formerly very good motors? Kohler? Wisconsin? I've
seen a lot of those on commercial/industrial equipment in the past.

You'll see the Kohler's/Wisconsin's on heavy duty marine/industrial/
emergency equipment and those that I've serviced are extremely high
quality.
I have noticed that some of the later Kohler's look alot like Toyo's
offerings.( Toyo motor works of Japan puts out a near clone of Honda
and seem to be just as good.)
Even though they(Kohler) still carries a "made in usa" badge.

I've seen both Kohler and Wisconsin used in emergency evac/marine
pumps and on older Bearcat scooters and swamp buggies.

My apologies to all if I've come off like a troll.


  #31   Report Post  
James Sweet
 
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So what about the other formerly very good motors? Kohler? Wisconsin?

I've
seen a lot of those on commercial/industrial equipment in the past.

You'll see the Kohler's/Wisconsin's on heavy duty marine/industrial/
emergency equipment and those that I've serviced are extremely high
quality.
I have noticed that some of the later Kohler's look alot like Toyo's
offerings.( Toyo motor works of Japan puts out a near clone of Honda
and seem to be just as good.)
Even though they(Kohler) still carries a "made in usa" badge.

I've seen both Kohler and Wisconsin used in emergency evac/marine
pumps and on older Bearcat scooters and swamp buggies.

My apologies to all if I've come off like a troll.


Ya know, I went to Home Depot the other day and looked at lawnmowers and
holy crap, you're right! The B&S motors *do* have cheap flimsy plastic carbs
with primer bulbs now! I always had *great* luck with their stuff, I dunno
when it changed but it most certainly has. Maybe my B&S stuff is older than
I realized.


  #32   Report Post  
none
 
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Default

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:46:43 GMT, "James Sweet"
wrote:



So what about the other formerly very good motors? Kohler? Wisconsin?

I've
seen a lot of those on commercial/industrial equipment in the past.

You'll see the Kohler's/Wisconsin's on heavy duty marine/industrial/
emergency equipment and those that I've serviced are extremely high
quality.
I have noticed that some of the later Kohler's look alot like Toyo's
offerings.( Toyo motor works of Japan puts out a near clone of Honda
and seem to be just as good.)
Even though they(Kohler) still carries a "made in usa" badge.

I've seen both Kohler and Wisconsin used in emergency evac/marine
pumps and on older Bearcat scooters and swamp buggies.

My apologies to all if I've come off like a troll.


Ya know, I went to Home Depot the other day and looked at lawnmowers and
holy crap, you're right! The B&S motors *do* have cheap flimsy plastic carbs
with primer bulbs now! I always had *great* luck with their stuff, I dunno
when it changed but it most certainly has. Maybe my B&S stuff is older than
I realized.

They've been using plastic(nylon) for nearly 20 years in their bottom
of the line"plain Jane" mowers.
About the only good thing about them is that they have almost no
moving parts.(no throttle butterfly or mix screw)
As long as you don't try and use them in commercial apps they'll last
3-4 years. Then about all you'll need to replace is the primer bulb
and the diaphragm.
They also have a black plastic carb on some mods of consumer mowers,
I've found these to be pretty sorry.
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