Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Nick Hull
 
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Default Inverter glitch question

I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
  #2   Report Post  
Bob Urz
 
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Default



Nick Hull wrote:

I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?


Maybe your ballast don't like the SQUARE WAVE output your cheap inverter
is putting out? How hot are your ballast's? How many watts of load?
Continuous rating of your inverter? How hot is the inverter?
Maybe a higher rated sine wave inverter would solve your problems.

Bob


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  #3   Report Post  
Nick Hull
 
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In article , Bob Urz wrote:

Nick Hull wrote:

I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?


Maybe your ballast don't like the SQUARE WAVE output your cheap inverter
is putting out? How hot are your ballast's? How many watts of load?
Continuous rating of your inverter? How hot is the inverter?
Maybe a higher rated sine wave inverter would solve your problems.


The lights work well with the Sq (modified sine) wave output, ballasts
run cool and the inverter runs cool. The problem SEEMS to occur when
the power goes out and comes back on so there are surges on the mains.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
  #4   Report Post  
CJT
 
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Default

Nick Hull wrote:
In article , Bob Urz wrote:


Nick Hull wrote:


I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?


Maybe your ballast don't like the SQUARE WAVE output your cheap inverter
is putting out? How hot are your ballast's? How many watts of load?
Continuous rating of your inverter? How hot is the inverter?
Maybe a higher rated sine wave inverter would solve your problems.



The lights work well with the Sq (modified sine) wave output, ballasts
run cool and the inverter runs cool. The problem SEEMS to occur when
the power goes out and comes back on so there are surges on the mains.

I'd look closely at your automatic switch. Perhaps it's generating
an RF pulse when it switches state that is somehow reaching your
inverter. The solution might be as simple as a capacitor across the
switch, or a cheap filter between it and the inverter.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .
  #5   Report Post  
JURB6006
 
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Default

Let me get this straight, this UPS is only hooked to one of the branch
circuits, not the mains.

If I'm correct, there are only flourescent lights as a load here. Is this
correct ?

If so I have an opinion that might help. Before these lights fire up, they
present almost no load. With no load the proximity to the other wires and other
factors may be impressing a "hum" on the output line. If the logic control in
the UPS detects this it may either see it as a fault, or who knows.

Flying by the seat of my pants here, I'd connect at least one incandescent
light to the output and see if it corrects the problem. I think it's worth a
try at least.

JURB


  #7   Report Post  
Nick Hull
 
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In article , CJT
wrote:

Nick Hull wrote:
In article , Bob Urz wrote:


Nick Hull wrote:


I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?


Maybe your ballast don't like the SQUARE WAVE output your cheap inverter
is putting out? How hot are your ballast's? How many watts of load?
Continuous rating of your inverter? How hot is the inverter?
Maybe a higher rated sine wave inverter would solve your problems.



The lights work well with the Sq (modified sine) wave output, ballasts
run cool and the inverter runs cool. The problem SEEMS to occur when
the power goes out and comes back on so there are surges on the mains.

I'd look closely at your automatic switch. Perhaps it's generating
an RF pulse when it switches state that is somehow reaching your
inverter. The solution might be as simple as a capacitor across the
switch, or a cheap filter between it and the inverter.


My 'automatic switch' is just a DC relay powered from the AC mains with
rectification and a capacitor. If the power fails the cap will hold the
relay in for 10 seconds, then it drops out to energize the CF light. I
don't see any RF pulse there, do you?

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
  #8   Report Post  
Art Todesco
 
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Default

Compact fluorescents use an electronic ballast. Depending on the lamp,
there may be some large inrush currents when they are 1st switched on.
Maybe you are just on the boarder line. Just a guess. You might try
turning on only 1/2 the lights. If it works, you could use 2 relays
with different time delays so they don't come on at the same time.

BTW, I know you mentioned 12 volt CFs. There are some CF spring-shaped
lamps available like the ones at
http://www.realgoods.com/shop/shop3....=spring%20lamp.

Anyway, just another thought.

Nick Hull wrote:
In article , CJT
wrote:


Nick Hull wrote:

In article , Bob Urz wrote:



Nick Hull wrote:



I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?


Maybe your ballast don't like the SQUARE WAVE output your cheap inverter
is putting out? How hot are your ballast's? How many watts of load?
Continuous rating of your inverter? How hot is the inverter?
Maybe a higher rated sine wave inverter would solve your problems.


The lights work well with the Sq (modified sine) wave output, ballasts
run cool and the inverter runs cool. The problem SEEMS to occur when
the power goes out and comes back on so there are surges on the mains.


I'd look closely at your automatic switch. Perhaps it's generating
an RF pulse when it switches state that is somehow reaching your
inverter. The solution might be as simple as a capacitor across the
switch, or a cheap filter between it and the inverter.



My 'automatic switch' is just a DC relay powered from the AC mains with
rectification and a capacitor. If the power fails the cap will hold the
relay in for 10 seconds, then it drops out to energize the CF light. I
don't see any RF pulse there, do you?

  #9   Report Post  
CJT
 
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Default

Nick Hull wrote:
In article , CJT
wrote:


Nick Hull wrote:

In article , Bob Urz wrote:



Nick Hull wrote:



I'm using a cheap 300 watt inverter with 2 golf cart batteries to power
emergency lights during power failures. I found that 12 vdc
flourescents were expensive and had short lives, so I'm using 110vac CFs
powered by the 300 watt inverter. Works very well EXCEPT for an
occasional glitch, where the inverter turns off due to a transient hab
has to be manually reset.

I'm not sure where the transient comes from, I can not duplicate it in
tests. The inverter is connected to the batterys and a float charger
keeps them topped. Plugging & unplugging the float charger does
nothing. The Inverter output goes around the house to various CF bulbs
on manual switches and one automatic switch, maybe 50' total wiring some
of which parallels existing house power wiring but no motors or heavy
loads.

Not much info, wut what could be causing the glitch that turns my
inverter off and how might I fix it or troubleshoot the problem?


Maybe your ballast don't like the SQUARE WAVE output your cheap inverter
is putting out? How hot are your ballast's? How many watts of load?
Continuous rating of your inverter? How hot is the inverter?
Maybe a higher rated sine wave inverter would solve your problems.


The lights work well with the Sq (modified sine) wave output, ballasts
run cool and the inverter runs cool. The problem SEEMS to occur when
the power goes out and comes back on so there are surges on the mains.


I'd look closely at your automatic switch. Perhaps it's generating
an RF pulse when it switches state that is somehow reaching your
inverter. The solution might be as simple as a capacitor across the
switch, or a cheap filter between it and the inverter.



My 'automatic switch' is just a DC relay powered from the AC mains with
rectification and a capacitor. If the power fails the cap will hold the
relay in for 10 seconds, then it drops out to energize the CF light. I
don't see any RF pulse there, do you?

Only if there's arcing.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .
  #10   Report Post  
Lionel
 
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Default

Kibo informs me that Nick Hull stated that:

In article , CJT
wrote:
I'd look closely at your automatic switch. Perhaps it's generating
an RF pulse when it switches state that is somehow reaching your
inverter. The solution might be as simple as a capacitor across the
switch, or a cheap filter between it and the inverter.


My 'automatic switch' is just a DC relay powered from the AC mains with
rectification and a capacitor. If the power fails the cap will hold the
relay in for 10 seconds, then it drops out to energize the CF light. I
don't see any RF pulse there, do you?


Unless you quench it somehow, you'll get a big voltage spike, (resulting
in an RF glitch), any time a coil (such as your relay) is switched off.
Does the coil of the relay have a diode or cap across it to sink the
spike? If not, that may well be the cause of your problem.

When switching heavy loads with a relay, it's also good practice to put
an RC supression circuit across the contacts to prevent sparking, which
will generate RF, as well as being bad for the contacts.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------


  #11   Report Post  
Nick Hull
 
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In article ,
Lionel wrote:

Kibo informs me that Nick Hull stated that:

In article , CJT
wrote:
I'd look closely at your automatic switch. Perhaps it's generating
an RF pulse when it switches state that is somehow reaching your
inverter. The solution might be as simple as a capacitor across the
switch, or a cheap filter between it and the inverter.


My 'automatic switch' is just a DC relay powered from the AC mains with
rectification and a capacitor. If the power fails the cap will hold the
relay in for 10 seconds, then it drops out to energize the CF light. I
don't see any RF pulse there, do you?


Unless you quench it somehow, you'll get a big voltage spike, (resulting
in an RF glitch), any time a coil (such as your relay) is switched off.
Does the coil of the relay have a diode or cap across it to sink the
spike? If not, that may well be the cause of your problem.


The coil isn't 'switched' off, it just slowly decays until it drops out
for lack of current, while current is still flowing but too weak to hold
the relay in.

When switching heavy loads with a relay, it's also good practice to put
an RC supression circuit across the contacts to prevent sparking, which
will generate RF, as well as being bad for the contacts.


Very true, but this is only switching a 7 watt CF bulb.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
  #12   Report Post  
Nick Hull
 
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Default

In article I0jfd.316290$3l3.68112@attbi_s03,
Art Todesco wrote:

Compact fluorescents use an electronic ballast. Depending on the lamp,
there may be some large inrush currents when they are 1st switched on.
Maybe you are just on the boarder line. Just a guess. You might try
turning on only 1/2 the lights. If it works, you could use 2 relays
with different time delays so they don't come on at the same time.


I'm only turning one light on automatically

BTW, I know you mentioned 12 volt CFs. There are some CF spring-shaped
lamps available like the ones at

http://www.realgoods.com/shop/shop3....3509&kw=spring
%20lamp.

Interesting url, I'll probably try that route also.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
  #13   Report Post  
Fred McKenzie
 
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The coil isn't 'switched' off, it just slowly decays until it drops out
for lack of current, while current is still flowing but too weak to hold
the relay in.

When switching heavy loads with a relay, it's also good practice to put
an RC supression circuit across the contacts to prevent sparking, which
will generate RF, as well as being bad for the contacts.


Very true, but this is only switching a 7 watt CF bulb.

Nick-

After reading all the symptoms and suggested causes, it appears that everything
is in order and should work. This leaves the possibliity of a malfunction.

One possibility is that the circuit to the switched CF bulb has an intermittent
short circuit or other high current condition. The inverter will most likely
shut down if shorted, rather than blowing a fuse.

Another possibility is that the inverter "just does that". Substituting a
borrowed inverter may clear up the problem, unless it happens so seldom that
you can't be sure if it is fixed!

One other thing I've observed, is that a particular (MFJ) switched DC power
supply shuts down when I connect the 300 Watt Radio Shack inverter. In your
case, I would expect the battery to act as a buffer, supplying any necessary
peak startup current. Even if it occasionally failed to start, the inverter
should still start (or continue to run) from the battery until the battery ran
down.

Fred

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