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Default Disconnecting CFL bulb from powered circuit can cause damage?

I have a mosquito trap with a circline 10W UV fluorescent bulb and a fan, the bulb went bad and it proved difficult to get a replacement. Now I would like to run the bulb only at night to extend its life and I tought to add an LDR, some transistors and a relay to run the bulb only at night.

Problem is the same inverter runs the bulb (CFL like circuit) and the fan, and the fan must never stop. The inverter has separate transformers for the bulb and fan but the drive circuit seems shared.

My concern is if I can place the relay in series with one of the four bulb wires to turn it on and off safely. The inverter ran for several months with a blown bulb so it has no problem to run without a load. But can it be damaged if the bulb is disconnected while powered?
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On 16/03/2019 01:54, Jeroni Paul wrote:
I have a mosquito trap with a circline 10W UV fluorescent bulb and a fan, the bulb went bad and it proved difficult to get a replacement. Now I would like to run the bulb only at night to extend its life and I tought to add an LDR, some transistors and a relay to run the bulb only at night.

Problem is the same inverter runs the bulb (CFL like circuit) and the fan, and the fan must never stop. The inverter has separate transformers for the bulb and fan but the drive circuit seems shared.

My concern is if I can place the relay in series with one of the four bulb wires to turn it on and off safely. The inverter ran for several months with a blown bulb so it has no problem to run without a load. But can it be damaged if the bulb is disconnected while powered?


How complex would you like this?

I'd separate things and run the fan from it's own power supply that also
supports a circuit that

1) switches the fan off after the lamp has cooled,
2) doesn't allow the inverter to turn on if the fan is not running

A bit of simple logic, or a micro....

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On Saturday, 16 March 2019 01:54:38 UTC, Jeroni Paul wrote:

I have a mosquito trap with a circline 10W UV fluorescent bulb and a fan, the bulb went bad and it proved difficult to get a replacement. Now I would like to run the bulb only at night to extend its life and I tought to add an LDR, some transistors and a relay to run the bulb only at night.

Problem is the same inverter runs the bulb (CFL like circuit) and the fan, and the fan must never stop. The inverter has separate transformers for the bulb and fan but the drive circuit seems shared.

My concern is if I can place the relay in series with one of the four bulb wires to turn it on and off safely. The inverter ran for several months with a blown bulb so it has no problem to run without a load. But can it be damaged if the bulb is disconnected while powered?


a small halogen bulb also works to attract bugs.


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Adrian Caspersz wrote:
How complex would you like this?

I'd separate things and run the fan from it's own power supply that also
supports a circuit that

1) switches the fan off after the lamp has cooled,
2) doesn't allow the inverter to turn on if the fan is not running

A bit of simple logic, or a micro....

--
Adrian C


The fan is not for cooling. It is a mosquito trap and the fan sucks mosquitoes attracted by a chemical compound, heat and UV light. The fan must not stop or the mosquitoes will escape.

I forgot to mention it is a Jata MT8.
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On Friday, March 15, 2019 at 9:54:38 PM UTC-4, Jeroni Paul wrote:
I have a mosquito trap with a circline 10W UV fluorescent bulb and a fan, the bulb went bad and it proved difficult to get a replacement. Now I would like to run the bulb only at night to extend its life and I tought to add an LDR, some transistors and a relay to run the bulb only at night.

Problem is the same inverter runs the bulb (CFL like circuit) and the fan, and the fan must never stop. The inverter has separate transformers for the bulb and fan but the drive circuit seems shared.

My concern is if I can place the relay in series with one of the four bulb wires to turn it on and off safely. The inverter ran for several months with a blown bulb so it has no problem to run without a load. But can it be damaged if the bulb is disconnected while powered?



Is there room to add a supply just to power the fan? If so, you can arrange to power down the CFL inverter (even directly at the processing chip which usually has an enable line) when not needed instead of suddenly disconnecting the load. This way, you would probably not even need the relay; use your photocell and transistor to shut down the inverter directly.

I don't know if mechanically switching your lamp on and off will damage the lamp or supply, but my gut instinct is no.

Switching power at the processor IC will be safe for both.


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As long as you understand that so-called "mosquito traps" based only on light do not actually attract mosquitoes, you will find that any light will do..

The shocking trap has been demonstrated to attract primarily beneficial insects. From: https://www.mosquito.org/page/faq

Do Bug-Zappers work?
Black light insect electrocution devices (Bug Zappers, etc.) are purchased in huge quantities by homeowners due to their demonstrated ability to attract and kill thousands of insects over a 24 hr. period. One industry representative estimates that over 1.75 million of these devices are purchased annually in the U.S. But do they really control pest insects? Bug zappers do indeed kill some mosquitoes. However, the only two controlled studies conducted to date by independent investigators at the University of Notre Dame showed that mosquitoes comprised merely 4.1% and 6.4% respectively of the daily catch over an entire season. Even more important was the finding in both studies that there was no significant difference in the number of mosquitoes found in yards with or without bug zappers. What is particularly disconcerting, however, is the number of non-pest insects that comprise the vast majority of trap catch. Many of these insects are beneficial predators on other insect pests. They in turn constitute a major part of the diet of many songbirds. Indeed, reduced numbers of moth and beetle prey species have contributed significantly to the decline of songbird populations in many affluent suburbs. Insect electrocution devices undoubtedly bear some responsibility for this phenomenon. Mosquitoes continue to be more attracted to humans than to the devices. One study conducted in homeowners' backyards showed that of the insects killed by these devices, only 0.13% were female mosquitoes. An estimated 71 billion to 350 billion beneficial insects may be killed annually in the United States by these electrocuting devices.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On 18/03/2019 11:43, wrote:
An estimated 71 billion to 350 billion beneficial insects may be
killed annually in the United States by these electrocuting devices.

Let your conscience be your guide.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coGBgkjGQ9g

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Default Disconnecting CFL bulb from powered circuit can cause damage?

On 2019/03/18 4:43 a.m., wrote:

As long as you understand that so-called "mosquito traps" based only on light do not actually attract mosquitoes, you will find that any light will do..

The shocking trap has been demonstrated to attract primarily beneficial insects. From:
https://www.mosquito.org/page/faq

Do Bug-Zappers work?
Black light insect electrocution devices (Bug Zappers, etc.) are purchased in huge quantities by homeowners due to their demonstrated ability to attract and kill thousands of insects over a 24 hr. period. One industry representative estimates that over 1.75 million of these devices are purchased annually in the U.S. But do they really control pest insects? Bug zappers do indeed kill some mosquitoes. However, the only two controlled studies conducted to date by independent investigators at the University of Notre Dame showed that mosquitoes comprised merely 4.1% and 6.4% respectively of the daily catch over an entire season. Even more important was the finding in both studies that there was no significant difference in the number of mosquitoes found in yards with or without bug zappers. What is particularly disconcerting, however, is the number of non-pest insects that comprise the vast majority of trap catch. Many of these insects are beneficial predators on other insect pests. They in turn constitute a major part of the diet of many songbirds. Indeed, reduced numbers of moth and beetle prey species have contributed significantly to the decline of songbird populations in many affluent suburbs. Insect electrocution devices undoubtedly bear some responsibility for this phenomenon. Mosquitoes continue to be more attracted to humans than to the devices. One study conducted in homeowners' backyards showed that of the insects killed by these devices, only 0.13% were female mosquitoes. An estimated 71 billion to 350 billion beneficial insects may be killed annually in the United States by these electrocuting devices.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA



Thanks again Peter.

One has to be careful of assumptions - I assumed these things were
effective because the advertising said they were...

Age Of Persuasion indeed!

Gah! When will I ever learn?

John :-#(#
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On Monday, 18 March 2019 11:43:34 UTC, wrote:

As long as you understand that so-called "mosquito traps" based only on light do not actually attract mosquitoes, you will find that any light will do.

The shocking trap has been demonstrated to attract primarily beneficial insects. From: https://www.mosquito.org/page/faq

Do Bug-Zappers work?
Black light insect electrocution devices (Bug Zappers, etc.) are purchased in huge quantities by homeowners due to their demonstrated ability to attract and kill thousands of insects over a 24 hr. period. One industry representative estimates that over 1.75 million of these devices are purchased annually in the U.S. But do they really control pest insects? Bug zappers do indeed kill some mosquitoes. However, the only two controlled studies conducted to date by independent investigators at the University of Notre Dame showed that mosquitoes comprised merely 4.1% and 6.4% respectively of the daily catch over an entire season. Even more important was the finding in both studies that there was no significant difference in the number of mosquitoes found in yards with or without bug zappers. What is particularly disconcerting, however, is the number of non-pest insects that comprise the vast majority of trap catch. Many of these insects are beneficial predators on other insect pests. They in turn constitute a major part of the diet of many songbirds. Indeed, reduced numbers of moth and beetle prey species have contributed significantly to the decline of songbird populations in many affluent suburbs. Insect electrocution devices undoubtedly bear some responsibility for this phenomenon. Mosquitoes continue to be more attracted to humans than to the devices. One study conducted in homeowners' backyards showed that of the insects killed by these devices, only 0.13% were female mosquitoes. An estimated 71 billion to 350 billion beneficial insects may be killed annually in the United States by these electrocuting devices.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Interesting. That's at odds with my limited experience of them. Both uv tube with kilovolts & halogen lamp with hot bit removed the majority of flying insects indoors when I used them. What percentage were mozzies I don't know, houseflies were the main issue & catch.

I'm puzzled too by the talk of yards. Surely they weren't using them outdoors? If so no wonder they didn't achieve anything.


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Insects are attracted by warmth, not light.
So any gadget won't win.

Jeroni Paul a écrit le 16/03/2019 Ã* 02:54Â*:
I have a mosquito trap with a circline 10W UV fluorescent bulb and a fan, the bulb went bad and it proved difficult to get a replacement. Now I would like to run the bulb only at night to extend its life and I tought to add an LDR, some transistors and a relay to run the bulb only at night.

Problem is the same inverter runs the bulb (CFL like circuit) and the fan, and the fan must never stop. The inverter has separate transformers for the bulb and fan but the drive circuit seems shared.

My concern is if I can place the relay in series with one of the four bulb wires to turn it on and off safely. The inverter ran for several months with a blown bulb so it has no problem to run without a load. But can it be damaged if the bulb is disconnected while powered?




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On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-4, Look165 wrote:
Insects are attracted by warmth, not light.
So any gadget won't win.



Yeah, but insects like mosquitoes "see" heat, and most light sources emit light in the infrared band.
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On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 04:37:50 -0700, John-Del wrote:

On Monday, March 18, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-4, Look165 wrote:
Insects are attracted by warmth, not light.
So any gadget won't win.



Yeah, but insects like mosquitoes "see" heat, and most light sources
emit light in the infrared band.


It seems that mosquitoes initially follow CO2-rich airflows to find food
sources, switching to warmth/moisture/odour vectors as they home in, and
finally using eyesight to find the best place for tapping into the
victim's blood supply.

Several information sources say this: none say they use long-range
optical or IR methods of finding their next meal.


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I am going to get a bit snarky here, as there is an entire class of the population that are so confused by actual facts that they *MUST* believe the opposite, or they will die.

a) Mosquitoes are poor flyers - generally as little as a 5 mph wind will give them difficulties. A breeze/fan is your best local defense.
b) Mosquitoes follow CO2, various scents and such in searching for their prey. Although they prefer warm-blooded prey, they will readily bite reptiles and amphibians should nothing else be available.
c) Some individuals attract mosquitoes more than others. But anything that breaths with lungs is fair game.

Mosquitoes ARE NOT attracted to light. FULL STOP. If they get caught in a zapper-type trap, it will be mostly males (which feed on sap and nectar) or females caught simply passing through, not heading to a destination.

Zappers may be entertaining, but they are a plague on the insect population, doing far more harm than good - excepting those indoors, in kitchens and such, that kill mostly flies. The brute fact of the matter is that these devices should be banned to the general public, and used only by license. As, clearly, the general public is far too stupid to understand the issue - requiring a nanny-government to protect them.

No Bumblebees - no vine squash or melons.
No Bees - not much of anything.
No hummingbirds (protein source: Fruitflies, spiders and other small bugs, mostly), many fruits with tubular flowers would fail.
Moths, butterflies, midges, beetles - by the way, no midges (often mistaken for mosquitoes), no chocolate.

Insects are at the bottom of the food chain - and the base of the pyramid on which much other life is based.

It is interesting to note that the mosquito, while widespread and pernicious, is one of the few insects that does not seem to occupy an important place in the food chain. Really. And, one of the few that is also immune to most conventional attractants. Go figure.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On Tuesday, 19 March 2019 12:09:02 UTC, wrote:

Zappers may be entertaining, but they are a plague on the insect population, doing far more harm than good - excepting those indoors, in kitchens and such, that kill mostly flies.


.... which is precisely where they are used.


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On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 8:09:02 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I am going to get a bit snarky here, as there is an entire class of the population that are so confused by actual facts that they *MUST* believe the opposite, or they will die.

a) Mosquitoes are poor flyers - generally as little as a 5 mph wind will give them difficulties. A breeze/fan is your best local defense.
b) Mosquitoes follow CO2, various scents and such in searching for their prey. Although they prefer warm-blooded prey, they will readily bite reptiles and amphibians should nothing else be available.


This is very old data, it's what the grad student working on his dissertation on mosquitos told me in college, and that was 1971. So there may be newer info, or he may have been wrong. There is as usual no chance I've remembered wrong! humor

But he said mosquitos were not attracted to CO2, but activated by it. CO2 just increased their random flying speed, causing them to be more likely to come into proximity to a warm blooded critter. He also said repellents didn't repel, but just made it harder for them to find you, so if the density was such they would bump into you anyway you were toast. (that was certainly true on a camping trip to Canada.)


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On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 8:47:48 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

This is very old data, it's what the grad student working on his dissertation on mosquitos told me in college, and that was 1971. So there may be newer info, or he may have been wrong.


That the data is old does not make it inaccurate. What has changed is how refined modern mosquito traps operate - which is by a combination of CO2 and heat - just like warm-blooded prey; and how repellents have also been refined.

DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) does, in fact, confuse the mosquito such that it has a hard time landing in order to bite. And in sufficient concentration (actual contact) it will kill them. But, it and many other oils such as eucalyptus, pennyroyal and similar do have actual repellent properties - mosquitoes do actually hate the smell. As the non-DEET materials do not cause confusion, they are poor substitutes in actual practice.

By the way, all the modern traps do is act like a REALLY BIG and attractive lure - and so should be placed some considerable distance, and slightly downwind of the area to be protected. Otherwise, they will act as an invitation to the party.

And, we have Metofluthrin these days, which is a pyrethroid (plant-based) neurotoxin that is a specialized repellent pretty much only for mosquitoes.

Point being that none of this makes bug zappers any more benign.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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On Tuesday, 19 March 2019 13:09:40 UTC, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 8:47:48 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:

This is very old data, it's what the grad student working on his dissertation on mosquitos told me in college, and that was 1971. So there may be newer info, or he may have been wrong.


That the data is old does not make it inaccurate. What has changed is how refined modern mosquito traps operate - which is by a combination of CO2 and heat - just like warm-blooded prey; and how repellents have also been refined.

DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) does, in fact, confuse the mosquito such that it has a hard time landing in order to bite. And in sufficient concentration (actual contact) it will kill them. But, it and many other oils such as eucalyptus, pennyroyal and similar do have actual repellent properties - mosquitoes do actually hate the smell. As the non-DEET materials do not cause confusion, they are poor substitutes in actual practice.

By the way, all the modern traps do is act like a REALLY BIG and attractive lure - and so should be placed some considerable distance, and slightly downwind of the area to be protected. Otherwise, they will act as an invitation to the party.

And, we have Metofluthrin these days, which is a pyrethroid (plant-based) neurotoxin that is a specialized repellent pretty much only for mosquitoes.

Point being that none of this makes bug zappers any more benign.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


Using bug zappers outdoors makes about as much sense as having a gas heater outdoors. Even so they could only catch a tiny percentage of the world's insects that way.


NT
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On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 10:01:47 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Using bug zappers outdoors makes about as much sense as having a gas heater outdoors. Even so they could only catch a tiny percentage of the world's insects that way.


Actually, they, together with habitat change and such things as lawn services (Chemlawn and such) are threatening entire local ecosystems.
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Cat zappers, on the other hand.......................
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On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 8:24:55 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
Cat zappers, on the other hand.......................


True story:

We had a very large, fearless, but gentle Maine Coon named Boswell, who made it to age 16, and to 18 pounds before succumbing to cancer. In any case, he was a bit of a wandered, even when neutered. As we had an electronic fence for the dogs, we got a collar for him. The first day he wore it, he walked up to the edge of the property - we could see him twitch - carefully walked through the zap area, turned around and walked back. We went to the fence supplier and got the "super max" collar. Next day, he did the same thing.

Some cats....

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


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"The fan is not for cooling. It is a mosquito trap and the fan sucks mosquitoes attracted by a chemical compound, heat and UV light. The fan must not stop or the mosquitoes will escape. "

When it STARTED to run with a blown bulb what happened ? It ran. So it should run again. However, if it is sending already upped voltage to the CCFLs a regular switch is not reliable.

Anyway, it sounds like this contraption is a light, a heater and a fan. Common power supply ? That is common. Correct me if I am wrong.

If I am not wrong I say in the very long run you might cost a little longevity running without that part of the load, but I say MIGHT. Not for sure. And it's not like it's going to fail overnight.

Don't sweat it.
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On Saturday, March 16, 2019 at 6:16:26 PM UTC-4, Jeroni Paul wrote:
Adrian Caspersz wrote:
How complex would you like this?

I'd separate things and run the fan from it's own power supply that also
supports a circuit that

1) switches the fan off after the lamp has cooled,
2) doesn't allow the inverter to turn on if the fan is not running

A bit of simple logic, or a micro....

--
Adrian C


The fan is not for cooling. It is a mosquito trap and the fan sucks mosquitoes attracted by a chemical compound, heat and UV light. The fan must not stop or the mosquitoes will escape.

I forgot to mention it is a Jata MT8.


A few of those fly and mosquito traps on youtube look like they're very effective.
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On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 8:37:41 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 20, 2019 at 8:24:55 AM UTC-4, Tim R wrote:
Cat zappers, on the other hand.......................


True story:

We had a very large, fearless, but gentle Maine Coon named Boswell, who made it to age 16, and to 18 pounds before succumbing to cancer. In any case, he was a bit of a wandered, even when neutered. As we had an electronic fence for the dogs, we got a collar for him. The first day he wore it, he walked up to the edge of the property - we could see him twitch - carefully walked through the zap area, turned around and walked back. We went to the fence supplier and got the "super max" collar. Next day, he did the same thing.

Some cats....


Yes, some cats... go on...
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wrote:
As long as you understand that so-called "mosquito traps" based only on light do not actually attract mosquitoes, you will find that any light will do.

The shocking trap has been demonstrated to attract primarily beneficial insects. From: https://www.mosquito.org/page/faq

Do Bug-Zappers work?
Black light insect electrocution devices (Bug Zappers, etc.) are purchased in huge quantities by homeowners due to their demonstrated ability to attract and kill thousands of insects over a 24 hr. period. One industry representative estimates that over 1.75 million of these devices are purchased annually in the U.S. But do they really control pest insects? Bug zappers do indeed kill some mosquitoes. However, the only two controlled studies conducted to date by independent investigators at the University of Notre Dame showed that mosquitoes comprised merely 4.1% and 6.4% respectively of the daily catch over an entire season. Even more important was the finding in both studies that there was no significant difference in the number of mosquitoes found in yards with or without bug zappers. What is particularly disconcerting, however, is the number of non-pest insects that comprise the vast majority of trap catch. Many of these insects are beneficial predators on other insect pests. They in turn constitute a major part of the diet of many songbirds. Indeed, reduced numbers of moth and beetle prey species have contributed significantly to the decline of songbird populations in many affluent suburbs. Insect electrocution devices undoubtedly bear some responsibility for this phenomenon. Mosquitoes continue to be more attracted to humans than to the devices. One study conducted in homeowners' backyards showed that of the insects killed by these devices, only 0.13% were female mosquitoes. An estimated 71 billion to 350 billion beneficial insects may be killed annually in the United States by these electrocuting devices.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA


When the bulb blew I searched the net to understand if it was worth replacing the bulb and found the information you posted. The fact is its effectiveness went down without the light, the bug container was almost empty and mosquitoes were bitting in the area. I concluded the machine uses the CFL bulb also as a heat generator and probably without heat mosquitoes were not attracted inside the vents for the fan to suck them.

I could not find a replacement UV bulb of that type but I found a non-UV white light replacement that is enough to generate the intended heat. Time will say if it is effective.
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El jueves, 21 de marzo de 2019, 6:32:22 (UTC+1), escribió:
"The fan is not for cooling. It is a mosquito trap and the fan sucks mosquitoes attracted by a chemical compound, heat and UV light. The fan must not stop or the mosquitoes will escape. "


When it STARTED to run with a blown bulb what happened ? It ran. So it should run again. However, if it is sending already upped voltage to the CCFLs a regular switch is not reliable.

Anyway, it sounds like this contraption is a light, a heater and a fan. Common power supply ? That is common. Correct me if I am wrong.

If I am not wrong I say in the very long run you might cost a little longevity running without that part of the load, but I say MIGHT. Not for sure. And it's not like it's going to fail overnight.

Don't sweat it.


I tested to remove one wire while lit and nothing wrong seems to happen, the light just goes off and the fan continues to spin. I will have to try a relay and see if it turns off reliably.

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