Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Hi David,

On 3/20/2011 3:54 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/19/2011 11:51 PM D Yuniskis spake thus:

On 3/19/2011 6:39 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can post
some questions.


I think you have to refine your overall goals/interests.
There are many places you can find out "how to use an op amp"
(or, "how an op amp works", etc.).

But, what you *want* to use that op amp for is probably where
you will get far more pertinent information/advice if you can
refine your needs better.


Be that as it may, I went ahead and joined the first forum that was
suggested here (Electro-Tech Online, http://www.electro-tech-online.com)
and whaddya know, I got answers--pretty good ones--within an hour that
allowed me to get parts of my project working. Maybe it's not the


Great! Then you're set -- for now.

definitive, be-all and end-all of understanding op amp operation that


No, quite the contrary. If you know *everything* about op amps,
then there is no difference between applications -- because you
already know all the little details that differentiate one
type of application from another.

My point was, if you find a group that is dealing with the same
types of applications that you are wanting to address, then they
will have already tweaked the "oversimplification" of what an
op amp is by appending "... except, you have to do ________ when
you use it *this* way _______" to that description. I.e., they
will have highlighted the details that are important in *that*
type of application (e.g., if you are running with a single
supply instead of balanced supplies, needing more voltage
compliance in your output than the op amp can provide, etc.)

Most of "design" is figuring out which details to *ignore* and
which to *pursue*. A group of folks working on similar
applications will have already sorted that out for you.

[I recall designing (passive) speaker crossover networks with
a friend at school. He always had "50 ..." as his expressions.
I finally asked him where the heck he kept coming up with this
"50"?? Ans: 2 * pi * 8 ohms (more or less)

D'oh!

you seem to be suggesting, but that isn't what I asked for anyhow. I'm
just trying to muddle through at this point.

Actually, I have a pretty good textbook which probably has all the
answers I need, if I can only understand them: Albert Malvino's
/Electronic Principles/ (actually fished out of a dumpster!). It's
extremely well-written and explains all about op amp operation,
including the four feedback configurations (SP/SS/PP/PS), calculating
gain and impedance, and various op amp applications. Now if I can only
get over having to deal with the math (ugh!) ...


I started with Senturia & Wedlock's _Electronic Circuits and
Applications_ (and, before that, just reading data sheets). It
was one of those "good" books that predated the "sold by the
pound" trend that seems to have infected "modern" writing :
(though it was $20+ about 35 years ago!)

There also were "Made Simple" books aeons ago (When Dinosaurs
Walked the Earth). These were the precursors of the "For Dummies"
books -- but infinitely more intense! Highly condensed but
very good to get exposed to a lot in very few pages.
(e.g., "Electronics Made Simple")
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:03:15 -0700, D Yuniskis
wrote:

On 3/20/2011 10:18 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 05:09:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can post
some questions.


Get a ham license. Then you can find people who actively design and build
things, like to talk about them and would gladly help you.


Locally, we have about 2800 licensed hams in the county, of which I
would guess about 500 are at least semi-active, 100 regularly attend
various club meetings, 50 bother to build things, and perhaps 4 are
qualified to design anything useful.


Expressed in your characteristic "dry" manner... :


I try not to get excited about such things.

But, illustrates the point, well. Yet, doesn't say how accessible
those "4" are nor where their interests lie.


Actually, very accessible, if they're interested. We have a local
startup, Elecraft, that makes ham radio kits and accessories. Most of
the qualified hams in the area are now working for them.
http://www.elecraft.com
There's not much design work being done locally, but the engineers and
techs certainly know how the radios operate.

E.g., you would be
hard-pressed to get me to help you design an audio amp out of
discretes -- but, could probably keep me obsessed with trying to
cut power consumption by half a milliwatt on a battery powered
device! (and I'm a *helpful* soul ;-)


I have a similar problem. When I was still designing electronics, the
major obsession was reducing the cost. At that time, it meant
reducing the component count. If you get my attention, I can waste
enormous amounts of time, on futile exercises in component count
reduction. Same with unusual ways to implement simple things.

A lot also depends on how dense that population of "experts" is,
as well. E.g., our county is 9,200 sq mi with a population of just
over 1,000,000. So, 90 people / sq mile. *If* we have those 2800
hams, here (no idea), that would be one ham for every 4 sq mi. That
can make accessing that "expert" a bit problematic (I find learning
is usually faster "in person").


You can get a fair idea of the number of hams by diving into the FCC
ULS database and searching for counts by your local zip codes.
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchAmateur.jsp
For 95005 (Ben Lomond, CA), it shows 61 licenses. Unfortunately, the
FCC updates the data perhaps every 10 years, so some hams that have
moved out or died are still listed.

And, if the hams (and population, in general) are not evenly
distributed throughout the county, it only gets worse (potentially).


Worse, most hams seem to live in post office boxes.

E.g., there are *no* electronic suppliers, here, within driving
distance. The closest possible (overpriced) retailer is clear across
town (and would never have the types of components that I am
interested in).


We have one local supplier (other than Radio Shock). They're
expensive, but not outrageous.
http://www.santacruzelectronics.com

This is the age of specialization.


Exactly! The days of being able to keep a drawer full of transistors,
diodes, resistors, etc. and hack together an amplifier -- or a logic
gate (!) -- are long behind us.


Yep. Just finding the part in my mess is difficult. However, I do
have a fairly good collection of 1980's vintage discrete parts, which
are useful for raising the dead and repairing the antiques.

One problem with specialization is that it tends to create some rather
bizarre implementations. I once reverse engineered a microprocessor
design that could have been replaced by a quad op amp.

Sure, you can still do it, but there
is no point. I can recall building 8 digit counters out of discretes
with nixie displays... would I bother wasting my time on that *now*??
(though I *have* been sorely tempted to build a Difference Engine).


Hint: I never build or design anything that I can't sell or turn into
a sellable product. When I do build something for myself, I usually
build 3 to 5 extras, to sell to friends and recover my expenses.
Expertise in PCB layout is a must.

Note that it's still possible to have fun with electronics:
"How to blow up a microwave"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Gn0auLFUA

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On 3/20/2011 2:00 PM Meat Plow spake thus:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 14:47:36 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/20/2011 1:10 AM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can
post some questions.

news:sci.electronics.basics or news:sci.electronics.design are both
good. You get more hand holding in the .basic group, but you see the
same people from the .design group. They have more patience on the
.basic group which is intended to teach electronics, while the .design
group is to trade ideas between professional designers.


How did you miss that I specifically requested an online forum, not
other Usenet newsgroups? It's right up there in the very first sentence
I wrote, for chrissakes.


Remember Dave, honey attracts more flies than vinegar


I'll be sure to remember that next time I want to attract a bunch of flies!


--
The phrase "jump the shark" itself jumped the shark about a decade ago.

- Usenet
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:42:01 -0700, mike wrote:

Locally, we have about 2800 licensed hams in the county, of which I
would guess about 500 are at least semi-active, 100 regularly attend
various club meetings, 50 bother to build things, and perhaps 4 are
qualified to design anything useful. While it's possible to get some
help with design and construction from ham radio, it really depends on
whom you contact.


Valid point, although I think you exaggerate a bit.


I'm fairly sure about the 2800 hams in Santa Cruz County. The other
numbers are from many years of experience dealing with exactly the
issues that were mentioned. For example, the local electronics dealer
(Santa Cruz Electronics) often sends me customers who need some
expertise beyond what could be provided by the counter sales person,
but not so much that it would require a consulting contract. Much of
the stuff people want designed already exists. Other time, I end up
building some abomination for yet another get rich quick scheme.
Sometimes, I have to ask for help (i.e. I'm a lousy programmer), so I
have a clue as to how many locals are available and able to help. Of
course, since I'm a member of both SCZ County radio clubs, I know how
many of those are hams. My numbers might be off perhaps +/- 25%, but
not much more.

Now, give those same numbers for the denizens of sci.electronics.repair.
Maybe two numbers, with and without the profuse few who insist
on pushing the SNR toward zero.


Well, if you mean topic drift, you're discussing the problem with the
chief culprit. If the original question is boring or of little
interest, I simply change the topic. If the OP wants his question
answered, he can simply rephrase it so that it's more interesting and
less boring.

I'd also like to hear your estimate of the percentage that even
attempt to add USEFUL new information that helps answer the
original question.


That's easy. Just grep through the answers and see how many answers
supply calculations, numbers, references, and specifics. It won't be
many, but if you look hard, you may find some specific answers. URL's
don't count because most people don't explain why the URL should be
read.

In my case, I always try to add something useful to my answers. It
may not answer the original question, but it should be at least
interesting.

Percentages by post will be different than percentage
by author.


True. Quantity is a bad substitute for quality. Just ignore the
quantity of my words and postings.

And the percentage that just want to argue for the sake of arguing,
name calling, backstabbing, "hey look how smart I think I am", etc.


That would be 100%. I doubt that everyone is interested in helping
the OP as much as grandstanding, ego inflation, or some kind of power
trip. It's a futile effort, but it's still commonly practiced. My
motivation varies radically by the day. For example, todays endless
drivel is justified by my procrastinating on working on my income
taxes. Other days, I'm don't have a clue about the original question,
but am sufficiently interested in the topic to do the necessary
research on the topic, and present a passable summary of what I've
found. In rare cases, I may have some experience or knowledge about
the topic, and deign to pontificate about it. Whatever works.

On any subject, it's important to ask someone who knows what he's talking
about.


Not really. I ask very few questions. My last attempt resulted in
demonstrating how I can ignore the obvious by installing several
polarized capacitors backwards.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/GX520-bad-caps.jpg
Even so, there were plenty of wrong answers supplied by various people
trying to be helpful. In most cases, I can eliminate the clueless by
simply looking at the writing style. No numbers means no clue. One
line answers means no thinking was involved in crafting the answer.
Pontifications without substantiation means that they're not really
certain about their answer or their abilities. I don't even bother
with RTFM type answers. However, I'm perfectly willing to grovel
through the garbage for an answer and NEVER pass judgment on the
author. The reason dates back to my introduction to usenet, where I
managed to accidentally insult a well known expert, who didn't have
the time or interest to offer more than a general clue.

Incidentally, I've seen more wrong answers by established experts, who
are either too much in a hurry to supply a complete answer, or make
assumptions that the reader may not be able to catch.

Unfortunately, there are precious few of them.


On the contrary. Everyone is an expert on something. Where the
problems start are when they go out of their area of expertise. The
recent discussions on nuclear reactors in various forums is a great
example. Most of those posting are perfectly competent in their areas
of expertise, but rather marginal when discussing nuclear power.
Similarly, the amazing number of climate experts in the global warming
discussion should make one wonder how there can possibly be so many
climate experts in a field that didn't really exist more than perhaps
10 years ago.

Incidentally, ever notice that the more insignificant the question,
the more answers are supplied. Really well written and important
questions, rarely get any attention.

Most get drowned out by the multitude.


At the bottom of every dumpster is a diamond. It's yours if you're
willing to dig through the muck.

Some of them ARE hams.


Sure. However, the typical 10 minute monologue on 80 meters doesn't
offer much of an endorsement.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:39:12 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

BTW, did Don Lancaster ever update his "OP Amp Cookbook"?
Geoff.


As far as I can determine from Googling, the 3rd and last edition was
published in 1986.

Hmmm... that's odd. It's not listed:
http://www.tinaja.com/books/bkdons.asp


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


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David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 3/20/2011 1:10 AM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can post
some questions.

Don't get me wrong: I love, and usually prefer, Usenet. But I'm trying
to educate myself here, am working on a project, and a web forum that
allows one to post pictures would be better for my purposes. At least
I'd like to try it. (The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.)


news:sci.electronics.basics or news:sci.electronics.design are both
good. You get more hand holding in the .basic group, but you see the
same people from the .design group. They have more patience on the
.basic group which is intended to teach electronics, while the .design
group is to trade ideas between professional designers.


How did you miss that I specifically requested an online forum, not
other Usenet newsgroups? It's right up there in the very first sentence
I wrote, for chrissakes.



My suggestion still stands. Online forums drop like flies, so I've
stopped even trying to find one that's useful. Do whatever you like.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
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On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:16:07 -0400 "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in Message id:
:


Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.


A little pun, there?



A bit bipolar, if you ask me...


I dunno, but then again I may be biased.
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JW wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 00:16:07 -0400 "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote in Message id:
:


Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?


A bit bipolar, if you ask me...


I dunno, but then again I may be biased.



I figured that you were a little off center.


--
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Teflon coated.
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:39:54 -0800, David Nebenzahl
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can post
some questions.

Don't get me wrong: I love, and usually prefer, Usenet. But I'm trying
to educate myself here, am working on a project, and a web forum that
allows one to post pictures would be better for my purposes.


Here in Australia most ISPs offer free web space to their users. I use
my web space to post pictures and other binary data. Is that an option
for you?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
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On 3/21/2011 1:10 PM Franc Zabkar spake thus:

On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:39:54 -0800, David Nebenzahl
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can
post some questions.

Don't get me wrong: I love, and usually prefer, Usenet. But I'm
trying to educate myself here, am working on a project, and a web
forum that allows one to post pictures would be better for my
purposes.


Here in Australia most ISPs offer free web space to their users. I use
my web space to post pictures and other binary data. Is that an option
for you?


It's an option I'm already using. Well, not through my ISP, but using
one of the dozens of free photo hosting sites out there. In fact, the
forum I'm using (see below) doesn't let me post pictures directly, so I
have to first post them to a hosting site, then give a link to the
picture in the forum posting. A little cumbersome, but not too bad.

The thing I like about the web forums (I'm using Electro-Tech now, as
suggested above) is that you can post pictures *in your message*. What a
concept! So rather than dicking around with "binary" newsgroups (which I
don't use anymore since I stopped downloading pron), I can post
schematics, etc., right in the message.

As I said, I still prefer Usenet for most online communication. But
these newfangled Web thingies sure have their good points.


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)


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In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:39:12 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
wrote:

BTW, did Don Lancaster ever update his "OP Amp Cookbook"?
Geoff.


As far as I can determine from Googling, the 3rd and last edition was
published in 1986.

Hmmm... that's odd. It's not listed:
http://www.tinaja.com/books/bkdons.asp


That's because Walter Jung wrote it.

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

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On 3/21/2011 5:31 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 3/21/2011 1:10 PM Franc Zabkar spake thus:

On Sat, 19 Mar 2011 17:39:54 -0800, David Nebenzahl
put finger to keyboard and composed:

I'm looking for an online electronics forum (web-based) where I can
post some questions.

Snipped


DutchForce is a good one: http://www.dutchforce.com/~eforum/index.php?
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...


I dunno, but then again I may be biased.



I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback
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Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.



I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback



Not if you're at unity gain...


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:



The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.


I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback



Not if you're at unity gain...


But then you'll run into oscillation


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Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.


I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback



Not if you're at unity gain...


But then you'll run into oscillation



Everyone needs to exercise.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.


I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback


Not if you're at unity gain...


But then you'll run into oscillation



Everyone needs to exercise.


To obtain a higher slew-rate?
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Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.


I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback


Not if you're at unity gain...

But then you'll run into oscillation



Everyone needs to exercise.


To obtain a higher slew-rate?



Or just to keep from rusting, in place.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
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Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.


I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback


Not if you're at unity gain...

But then you'll run into oscillation


Everyone needs to exercise.


To obtain a higher slew-rate?



Or just to keep from rusting, in place.


I've run out of bandwidth...

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Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:


The subject of my current research is the ins and
outs of op amps.

A little pun, there?

A bit bipolar, if you ask me...

I dunno, but then again I may be biased.


I figured that you were a little off center.



Now that's unfair feedback


Not if you're at unity gain...

But then you'll run into oscillation


Everyone needs to exercise.

To obtain a higher slew-rate?



Or just to keep from rusting, in place.


I've run out of bandwidth...



You need a wider pipe...


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.


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Michael A. Terrell wrote:



I've run out of bandwidth...



You need a wider pipe...



That's what the plumber said...
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Wiebe Cazemier wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:



I've run out of bandwidth...



You need a wider pipe...



That's what the plumber said...



The 'Watergate plumbers' used tape.


--
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"learn electronics" wrote in message
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YEAH, BUT CAN I GO THERE AND TALK ABOUT RAEANNE BEING A MUDSHARK?

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