Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Modern Electronic Education

I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school, and the only available time was during classes. As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects. One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."
At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:
The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics, and
there's no need to know these things anyway because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.
Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of someth am interested in all ing.

I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike


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Default Modern Electronic Education (4th grade)

Mike S wrote:
I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school, and the only available time was during classes. As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects. One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."
At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:
The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics, and
there's no need to know these things anyway because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.
Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of something am interested in all .

I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike


Mike,

First, I'm surprised that he still had an unassembled Heathkit, as
they've been out of production for quite a while.

Next, I'm sorry that the teacher did not have more flexibility in
realizing that in putting together a kit, the manual, if well written,
will often have some theory of operation in it, and that the Dad
involved might have been a ham (or professional) who was able to
explain a lot of what they were doing as they spent real quality time
building the kit.

Often doing something is the way to learn. You can read cook books all
day long, and not know how to use a can opener. I would not be
surprised to find out that the teacher had no specialized training in
science, and that it was just another subject mandated in the schools
lesson plans. Maybe the teacher uses a "4th grade science lesson plan"
manual which is less creative than the kid's father. I'm disappointed
by her attitude of putting down what the student had done without even
looking into it.

Regards,
Tim Schwartz
Bristol Electronics
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Default Modern Electronic Education (4th grade)

She might have been using the word "Heathkit" in a generic sense.

However, the teacher was startlingly ignorant and parochial.


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Default Modern Electronic Education

How sad. I'd bet real money that any kid genuinely interested in
electronics would learn much, much more from building something like a
Heathkit with Dad, than independently doing a diorama or whatever. (I
speak from experience, my kids have done so many dioramas, it's almost
become an assembly-line thing with them.)

I recently showed my daughter a project in Nuts & Volts that "freezes"
water droplets using strobed LED's. Now she's begging me to help her
build one for her next science project. I'll probably do it, in spite
of whatever her teacher at the time says, because I *know* she'll
learn a lot.

IMO this teacher is not very impressive. Reminds me of a line by the
late George Carlin:

"...somewhere out there is the world's worst doctor........and someone
is seeing him tomorrow!"

Cheers.
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Default Science classes (was: Modern Electronic Education)

Mike S wrote:
[...]during a 4th grade science class
the teacher was asking the students
what they had planned for their science fair projects.

One young girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts
and adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something,
not just follow instructions from a kit..."
[...]I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.


It makes me angry that elementary schools
have done such a poor job of teaching Step 1 WRT Science:
For generations, Science classes have failed to define at the outset
**What is Science**.

The teacher was wrong
for the strict *copy something out of the book* approach.
That's kinda weak--but at least those are likely to be Science.

Go to the library. Look at the 500 section. THAT is Science.
(e.g. 537 will contain Fundamentals of Electricity.)
Now look at the 600 section. That is TECHNOLOGY.
(e.g. 621.319 is about how to wire a house.)
A willingness to conflate Science with Applied Science
shows that you (and the kid) don't know what Science is.

A proper Science project will *start* with The Scientific Method.
You will notice that a **Science** project
will begin with a question that needs to be answered.
http://www.rogers.k12.ar.us/users/eh...ficmethod.html

You will also notice that among the basics of The Scientific Method,
"build" is NOT listed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti...entific_method

You were wrong with your support for the *build a kit* approach.
Unless that kit is then used to **analyze** something,
building a kit is NOT part of a proper **Science** project.


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Default Modern Electronic Education

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 04:21:16 -0400, "Mike S" nospam wrote:

I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school,


Very unusual for a private skool.

As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects.


4th grade? That's about 9-10 year old. That's about the age where
one wants to build things, anything. I don't recall even having a
science fair in the 4th grade. I think my first was in the 6th grade.

One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."


Sigh. Apparently this teacher has never built anything. One does not
build a kit to learn something. One builds it to have something that
works. The learning is incidental. At that age, it's literally
impossible to do anything that does NOT also include learning. Digging
a hole in the yard is a learning experience. Tearing apart a toy to
see how it works is a learning exeperience. Apparently, this teacher
is into regimented learning, strictly by the books, and from the
books. While books are handy for understanding things that cannot be
touched, smelled, seen, or set on fire, the personal experience of
getting burned by the soldering iron, putting the parts in backwards,
and trying to troubleshoot the results, is far more educational.

At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.


Yep. Textbooks. I think they should be banned but that's another
rant.

In the past, I would give talks and advise senior high skool students
on their science fair projects. They never had any difficulty finding
new ideas. The problem was keeping them for attempting something
impossible or dangerous. My mantra was "learn by doing" which implies
that the exercise was in the doing, not in the "learn by reading". I
did have some conflicts over safety and liability issues, which is why
I don't do this any more. However, the students and most teachers
universally subscribed too the doctrine that the learning was in the
doing, not in the reading. I've very suprised that this 4th grade
teacher does not.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:
The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics, and
there's no need to know these things anyway because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.
Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of someth am interested in all ing.


Did this teacher actually say those things, or are you interpreting
what you heard? I find it difficult to believe because the #2 problem
(after funding) in todays skools is getting the students off their
obeise butts and doing things that require activity. They seem to all
want to languish in their chairs and not even move.

I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.


Something is wrong in that private skool. Discouraging investigation
and self-education at that age is a VERY bad idea.

Drivel: At one point, I mentioned a slide rule. A few brave students
asked if I could show them how to use one. I was rather suprised, but
I showed up with a few slide rules I had accumulated:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/slide-rule/slides/slide-rule.html
and demonstrated a few basic functions. Judging by the responses, I
suspect some students, who detested math, suddenly found the topic
interesting and educational. I also dragged in an abacus, with which
I did not do so well. However, a Chinese student from another class,
later volunteered to show us how it's done, and captured everyones
attention.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Modern Electronic Education

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 04:21:16 -0400, "Mike S" nospam put finger to
keyboard and composed:

I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school, and the only available time was during classes. As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects. One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."
At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:
The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics, and
there's no need to know these things anyway because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.
Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of someth am interested in all ing.

I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike


For one thing, the young girl probably learned how to solder. She may
also have learned how to recognise electronic components, even if she
didn't understand how they worked. I think that's valuable practical
knowledge. Most importantly, however, if she enjoyed doing what she
did, then that may have inspired her to learn more about the subject.

I accept that rote learning is not very useful, but the girl's science
project is a lot more than that. It's true what you say about China,
though. Gone are the days when you could assemble a kit for less than
the price of a ready-built commercial device. And even if you wanted
to try, the datasheets for many ICs may only be available to the IC
manufacturer's "partners". As for electronic theory, how many of us
understand MPEG, digital TV, ADSL protocols, mobile phone protocols,
etc? Are these concepts even taught? It seems to me that there is an
ever shrinking clique of designers who are privy to proprietary
standards, or standards that are sold at prohibitive cost.

One question I would ask the teacher is whether there is any point in
doing the science experiments called out in the curriculum, eg adding
an acid to an alkali to make a salt. Surely that's only repeating what
countless other people have already done?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
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Default Modern Electronic Education

Sigh. Apparently this teacher has never built anything. One does not
build a kit to learn something. One builds it to have something that
works. The learning is incidental.


One of the ways one learns is by repeating other people's work. True
creativity grows out of mastering the fundamentals.


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Default Modern Electronic Education

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 17:26:18 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Sigh. Apparently this teacher has never built anything. One does not
build a kit to learn something. One builds it to have something that
works. The learning is incidental.


One of the ways one learns is by repeating other people's work. True
creativity grows out of mastering the fundamentals.


Of course. That's makes good sense for an academic or scientifically
inclined High Skool student. However, we're talking about a 4th grade
class of 9-10 year olds. As I previously ranted, everything they do
is a new and educational experience. The trick is to get them to do
things. Education is incidental to experience. If they happen to
learn a few things along the way, all the better.

When you haven't done many simple things, literally everything is
considered creative to a 9-10 year old. Eventually, they do settle
down and learn that it's not necessary to shove one's finger in the
fire to know that it's hot. That can be learned from a book, video,
or lecture.

You might be amused with the acceptable vocabulary for a 10 year old.
As I recall from teacher prep the acceptable vocabulary was about
4,000 words (root words or lemmas) for the 4th grade. High Skool
graduates can usually manage about 17,000 words. Much of the
"fundamentals" consists of attaching names to concepts and
experiences. If you've ever had to limit your vocabulary to that of a
10 year old, you'll find the experience rather ummm.... frustrating.
Well, maybe not, as the typical television show targets about a 10
year old vocabulary.

Incidentally, I registered my personal philosophy as a domain name:
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
That should give you a clue as to how I view the learning experience.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
#
http://802.11junk.com
#
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
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Default Modern Electronic Education

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Sigh. Apparently this teacher has never built anything. One does not
build a kit to learn something.


That's simply not so. If the first kit, you'll learn to recognise at
least some components. Possible also decide to learn how to use colour
codes - or at least understand what they are for.

One builds it to have something that works.


Maybe in later years - but for many the making is equally as pleasurable
as the using. If not why bother?

The learning is incidental


That's the best way to learn. ;-)

--
*"I am " is reportedly the shortest sentence in the English language. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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Default Modern Electronic Education

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 17:26:18 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:


Sigh. Apparently this teacher has never built anything. One does not
build a kit to learn something. One builds it to have something that
works. The learning is incidental.


One of the ways one learns is by repeating other people's work. True
creativity grows out of mastering the fundamentals.


Of course. That's makes good sense for an academic or scientifically
inclined High Skool student. However, we're talking about a 4th grade
class of 9-10 year olds. As I previously ranted, everything they do
is a new and educational experience. The trick is to get them to do
things. Education is incidental to experience. If they happen to learn
a few things along the way, all the better.


Actually, it makes good sense for anyone. One might argue that doing things
_is_ the education. I recently saw a quote from Picasso, in which he said he
does things he doesn't know how to do in order to learn how to do them.
Children need to be taught that one way you learn is by experimenting. You
try different things to see what works. (I'm currently editing a manual at
Microsoft Hardware. I can't visualize how parts of it should be organized,
so I'm playing with different arrangements to see which work best.)

When LEGO introduced the original MindStorms, I bought a set and wrote an
extended critique, which the US division promised to review and comment on,
but (of course) never did. I'm still ****ed. (I might dig it up and post it.
I'd like to see the opinions of those in this group.)

One of the original MindStorm's problems was that it provided little, if
any, provision for copying existing designs. The view seemed to be that
kids' creativity would be stunted if they were shown how to do things. (I
never heard anyone make that complaint about Erector sets, which came with
books full of projects.) The nxt version has more designs to copy.


You might be amused with the acceptable vocabulary for a 10 year old.
As I recall from teacher prep the acceptable vocabulary was about
4,000 words (root words or lemmas) for the 4th grade. High Skool
graduates can usually manage about 17,000 words. Much of the
"fundamentals" consists of attaching names to concepts and
experiences. If you've ever had to limit your vocabulary to that of a
10 year old, you'll find the experience rather ummm... frustrating.


W doesn't seem to find it a problem.


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Default Modern Electronic Education

Speaking of electronic "education"...

RadioShack is currently promoting online courses that teach "electronics".
What they actually teach is the operation of products RS sells.


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Default Modern Electronic Education

On Jul 7, 4:21 am, "Mike S" nospam wrote:
I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school, and the only available time was during classes. As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects. One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."


Indeed, but the problem was not the kit, it was either the teacher's
assumption the girl had learned nothing while making it, or that the
girl actually hadn't learned anything while making it, or a little of
both.



At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:


Or just jumped the gun assuming something without really knowing and
not having the time to spend on one student when the classroom
curriculum needed to continue in order to give other students some
ideas.


The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics,


False. Modern electronics are, even when using largely integrated
ICs, still bound by input, output, power, properties of the discrete
components built into that IC. Think of it like this: If you want to
solder together a bunch of transistors, a clockgen, resistors, etc,
then pour a blob of epoxy on it, you have an IC that's just quite a
bit larger than one mass produced.


and
there's no need to know these things anyway


.... Unless you have to deal with the underlying aspects of the
technology which is the same as in any other science or trade.

because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.


Oh? Have you not noticed any variable capacitors or other adjustable
parts in one? Did you consider that for someone to have designed this
modern radio, they had to know a bit more than your oversimplified
notion? So it goes with any profession, you can say as a consumer "I
don't need to know" but it is only because some professional does need
to know and does know these basics. If you are thinking it was
different back then, no it wasn't. People weren't building heathkits
because they couldn't find a mass produced radio.

Theory is where it all starts. A child can put a round peg in a round
hole but that's about the depth of the complexity possible until they
develop analytical skills and formulate at least precursors of what we
know as theories.



Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of someth am interested in all ing.


I think you are misunderstanding what it's all about. The average
person never did buy a handful of transistors/etc and build a radio.
There was a time when some products were expensive enough that to
build your own meant you could save money, or it was just a hobby, but
the same is true today for example LED flashlights or audio
amplifiers.

Today design work is more about theory than ever. You're modularizing
a design based on functions you mentally conceive, and you just have
fewer steps to build each module. That is, if you are someone doing
it at all, but it all starts somewhere. Did the child have a hope of
building a modern radio instead? Science is about learning, right?
Is the child expected to go down into a volcano or travel to Mars on a
field trip? These too are science topics taught, it doesn't have to
directly relate to a achieved result like owning a modern radio vs the
concepts learned from a basic kit.


I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike


You are trying to take a shortcut between knowing nothing and having a
nirvana where we have everything. A child is the next generation of
worker who has to know fundamentals in their field, they cannot just
walk into a room with boxes full of ICs and present you with a
finished radio, and if you think only in terms of what they can buy,
to have a good enough job to earn money for such things they have to
have built a skill set in some other discipline which also starts out
with the fundamentals.

I'm sure I've drifted away from your fundamental point, but on the
other hand not everything one's heart desires can actually be bought
at the local electronics store or Walmart, the more discriminating or
picky a person is, the more apt they are to insist on making fewer
compromises and having something that most closely matches their own
subjective needs rather than a product trying to suit as many people
as possible thus making it most marketable. For these picky people,
if they have the skill they are more likely to build or modify
something to suit their need.

As for building from a kit, quite a few people still build their own
computer even though Dell et al. will gladly sell you one. Quite a
few people modify their cars or houses, even if they leave the grunt
work of the initial build to someone else while they focus on earning
money through the job skills they are specialized in. In short it's
just an evolution of our society that everyone isn't so much a jack of
all trades anymore, that we have the most experience people do the
most complex things to achieve a better result whenever it's
reasonably possible, and those experienced people have to start out
with the fundamentals and theories. Maybe the girl you wrote about
will have no interest in electronics, but maybe she will. Only
through exposure will this be known.
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Default Modern Electronic Education

On 7/12/08 5:39 AM, in article
, "Claude Hopper"
wrote:

Mike S wrote:
I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a private
school, and the only available time was during classes. As I went about my
business during a 4th grade science class the teacher was asking the
students what they had planned for their science fair projects. One young
girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"
Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."
At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the teacher
explain how to select a project from their textbooks.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some valuable
lessons:
The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics, and
there's no need to know these things anyway because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.
Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of a
working model of someth am interested in all ing.

I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike



American education is going down the toilet. That's why the economy is
going the same way.


Our economy is going down the toilet because parents haven't taught their
greedy brats any ethics.

I agree school education has slipped terribly, but perhaps it's beginning
was from a complete lack of parental support. How many parents even check
to see their kids do their homework, etc........

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Default Modern Electronic Education

Claude Hopper wrote:
Mike S wrote:
I recently had the opportunity to install computer systems in a
private school, and the only available time was during classes. As I
went about my business during a 4th grade science class the teacher
was asking the students what they had planned for their science fair
projects. One young girl told the teacher "My dad and I built a
Heathkit".
The teacher's response: "What's a Heathkit"


The dimwit didn't even know?

Girl: "We built a radio from scratch. We soldered all the parts and
adjusted everything to make it work"
Teacher: "Your science projects need to TEACH you something, not just
follow instructions from a kit..."
At this point I had stopped what I was doing and I listened to the
teacher explain how to select a project from their textbooks.


Again, dimwitted teacher.

It appears that the teacher taught this girl and the class some
valuable lessons:
The older generation can't teach us anything about modern electronics,
and there's no need to know these things anyway because...
Theory is useless. Radios are mass produced in China and there are no
adjustments to be made.


And any one who teaches that there was life before vacuum tube must be
teaching history.

Working with your hands means building a cardboard diorama instead of
a working model of someth am interested in all ing.

I am interested in everyone's thoughts about this.
Mike



American education is going down the toilet. That's why the economy is
going the same way.


Agreed there. Give a modern kid a bag full of parts and he is just as
likely to go to the dumpster than try to build something.
Bill (sad state of affairs we are in)Baka
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