Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old computer !
--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:22:48 +0000, baron
wrote:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old computer !


What is "bad" about it?

Aside form decreased wetting associated with RoHS solder differences,
it appears fine

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on the
cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in bent OUT.

Hammy wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on
the cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in
bent OUT.



When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

When I examine end-1.gif, I see what looks to be some excess solder
above the void, a horribly dewetted solder meniscus below the void,
and what look like a bunch of tin whiskers sprouting from the
meniscus.

The lighting of the capacitor is bad, failing to show detail of the
voiding, with a lot of reflection that masks the condition of the
meniscus.



--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

"Hammy" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on the
cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in bent OUT.


It's hard to tell from the pictures, they are head on and angle shot
would help.

My first impression was, "Looks good to me"

Cheers

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability spec
for RoHS assemblies.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been low on
solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint any more.
The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on the
cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in bent OUT.


Case? I see a surface mount ceramic capacitor.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:42:24 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on the
cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in bent OUT.


Case? I see a surface mount ceramic capacitor.



I'll be clearer. The end where the capacitor is actually soldered to
the board and where the "GAPPEING HOLE" is. I refered to this as a
"case" likely it is incorrect terminology but I figured it would be
obvious what I was talking about. I meant to say cap. Give me a break
it was 5:30 AM here when I wrote that.

I see what appears to be the "cap" (refer to above if needed) or
whatever being pushed out from the inside. This is how I drew my
conclusion.The material has been pushed from the inside.

The rms current rating was probably exceeded for the ambient temp it
overheated and Kabloowee!


It could also just have been a bumm cap it happens.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:42:24 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on the
cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in bent OUT.


Case? I see a surface mount ceramic capacitor.


I think he is referring to "end termination" or some use the lay term
"end cap".

MLCCs are made well, and not so well, so it comes down to MOBO brand as
far as getting a reputable design built with a reputably sourced BOM of
discreet components.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 09:17:14 -0800, Mycelium
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:42:24 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on the
cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in bent OUT.


Case? I see a surface mount ceramic capacitor.


I think he is referring to "end termination" or some use the lay term
"end cap".

^ Thank You.

MLCCs are made well, and not so well, so it comes down to MOBO brand as
far as getting a reputable design built with a reputably sourced BOM of
discreet components.

"Mycelium" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability spec
for RoHS assemblies.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been low on
solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint any more.
The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

44780 style LCD modules seem particularly intolerant of lead free solder.

A relative, always looking out for bargains, picked up a DAB radio alarm
clock "reduced to clear" - on getting it home they found it was pretty much
unusable with the LCD not working, so they passed it on to me for the same
as they paid.

When I opened it up and attempted to pull the LCD's ribbon cable connector
from the PCB receptacle, the ribbon cable pulled out of the solder joints on
the LCD module instead.

The same relative also has another DAB radio that has an intermittent LCD
backlight, and I have a music centre with dim backlight and intermittent
display.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:07:56 -0500, Hammy wrote:


The rms current rating was probably exceeded for the ambient temp it
overheated and Kabloowee!


Properly operating ceramic capacitors do not experience ANY heavy
current. If they are experiencing current, they are already bad.

You are attributing storage cap nomenclature and specs with ceramic
caps, which have entirely different purposes and operating spec
declarations.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:40:02 -0000, "ian field"
wrote:


"Mycelium" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability spec
for RoHS assemblies.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been low on
solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint any more.
The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

44780 style LCD modules seem particularly intolerant of lead free solder.

A relative, always looking out for bargains, picked up a DAB radio alarm
clock "reduced to clear" - on getting it home they found it was pretty much
unusable with the LCD not working, so they passed it on to me for the same
as they paid.

When I opened it up and attempted to pull the LCD's ribbon cable connector
from the PCB receptacle, the ribbon cable pulled out of the solder joints on
the LCD module instead.

The same relative also has another DAB radio that has an intermittent LCD
backlight, and I have a music centre with dim backlight and intermittent
display.


I still sometimes reminisce about the days of 'zebra strip' attachment
of LCDs, which made them very serviceable. :-)

I had a calculator given to me that failed due to Coka-Cola spillage,
and I took it apart, and cleaned up the strip and strip attachment area,
and reassembled it , and used it for a decade after that. It may still
be around somewhere in storage. I think it was a TI-30 or 35.

Too many solar powered now to keep old battery powered types around
anymore.

Bob Quintal Inscribed thus:

Hammy wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on
the cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in
bent OUT.



When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

When I examine end-1.gif, I see what looks to be some excess solder
above the void, a horribly dewetted solder meniscus below the void,
and what look like a bunch of tin whiskers sprouting from the
meniscus.

The lighting of the capacitor is bad, failing to show detail of the
voiding, with a lot of reflection that masks the condition of the
meniscus.

The lighting is really hard to get right. Â*But there is a void between
the cap and the solder on each end. Â*The cap is O/C between the pads
and measuring on the capacitor metalization shows about 20 pf.
This suggests that the cap value is around 20 pf.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Bob Quintal Inscribed thus:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Not entirely sure there is no plating on the very ends of the cap.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:15:29 -0800, Mycelium
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:07:56 -0500, Hammy wrote:


The rms current rating was probably exceeded for the ambient temp it
overheated and Kabloowee!


Properly operating ceramic capacitors do not experience ANY heavy
current. If they are experiencing current, they are already bad.

Sure they are 10 and 22uF MLCC's (X5R) are used all the time in the
output of SMPS's so they do carry large RMS currents. That cap looks
like a large 1206 or bigger package which means it's probably a 10 or
22uf cap.

You are attributing storage cap nomenclature and specs with ceramic
caps, which have entirely different purposes and operating spec
declarations.

If your SMPS is switching at 500kHz are faster you don't need large
Aluminum's for hold-up in between such small switching periods.

From just one of the numerous application notes out there on MLCC's as
output caps for SMPS's.

"Because the ESR of ceramic capacitors is low, the capacitor
temperature rise due to ripple current dissipation is usually
negligible. Good design practice dictates that we always confirm this
and verify that the output capacitor RMS current and temperature rise
are within the manufacturer's suggested limit. The maximum RMS ripple
current seen by the output capacitor occurs at the maximum input
voltage…."

Sounds to me like they are working while they carry high rms current.

Mycelium wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any
perceptible bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability
spec
for RoHS assemblies.

I know what RoHS compliant solder joints look like, but I deal in
High Reliability products. We cannot use Sn plated parts (because of
the whiskers.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have
been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been
low on solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint
any more.
Sure there is. NASA still insists on those criteria for any new
acquisitions.

The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so that
product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email addres

Hammy Inscribed thus:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:15:29 -0800, Mycelium
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:07:56 -0500, Hammy wrote:


The rms current rating was probably exceeded for the ambient temp it
overheated and Kabloowee!

From the measurements and the failure mode the cap itself hasn't
actually failed. I suspect more to do with the lead free solder used.

Properly operating ceramic capacitors do not experience ANY heavy
current. If they are experiencing current, they are already bad.

Sure they are 10 and 22uF MLCC's (X5R) are used all the time in the
output of SMPS's so they do carry large RMS currents. That cap looks
like a large 1206 or bigger package which means it's probably a 10 or
22uf cap.

Actually its rated 3Kv ! Yes its a lot bigger than 1206. I didn't have
any way to show its size on the picture but its 6mm in length.

You are attributing storage cap nomenclature and specs with ceramic
caps, which have entirely different purposes and operating spec
declarations.

If your SMPS is switching at 500kHz are faster you don't need large
Aluminum's for hold-up in between such small switching periods.

From just one of the numerous application notes out there on MLCC's as
output caps for SMPS's.

"Because the ESR of ceramic capacitors is low, the capacitor
temperature rise due to ripple current dissipation is usually
negligible. Good design practice dictates that we always confirm this
and verify that the output capacitor RMS current and temperature rise
are within the manufacturer's suggested limit. The maximum RMS ripple
current seen by the output capacitor occurs at the maximum input
voltageÂ…."

Sounds to me like they are working while they carry high rms current.

I don't know what the actual current is through this cap or whether it
would be enough to cause the metalisation to fail on each end in the
way it has or not.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

baron Inscribed thus:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old computer !

If you look at the first picture you can just about make out that the
capacitor is open circuit on the left hand side.

The capacitor is 6mm in length. Its value is about 18-20 pf at 3kv.

Its replacement will be here and fitted on Monday.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Hammy wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:42:24 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:50:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Are you seeing the same picture. There is clearly a rupture on
the cap from internal pressue obvious from the way the case in
bent OUT.


Case? I see a surface mount ceramic capacitor.



I'll be clearer. The end where the capacitor is actually soldered
to the board and where the "GAPPEING HOLE" is. I refered to this
as a "case" likely it is incorrect terminology but I figured it
would be obvious what I was talking about. I meant to say cap.
Give me a break it was 5:30 AM here when I wrote that.

What you are looking at is called the End Cap.

I see what appears to be the "cap" (refer to above if needed) or
whatever being pushed out from the inside. This is how I drew my
conclusion.The material has been pushed from the inside.

Having performed Destructive Physical Analysis (DPA) of thousands of
these little monsters over the last 30+ yrears, and knowing the
construction of them, I could conceive of moisture pushing out from
the sides, but not out from an end cap.These MLC (Multi-Layer
Ceramic) chips have a fairly solid end cap with half the plates
attached to one cap, the alternate ones attached to the other cap.

(View with fixed width font)

|-- |
| --|
End|-- | End
| -|
Cap|-- | Cap 2
1 | --|
|-- |

/\
Plates

The rms current rating was probably exceeded for the ambient temp
it overheated and Kabloowee!

I could see that if it were a Solid Tantalum Chip, but this does not
look like one.


It could also just have been a bumm cap it happens.

Or damage created by poor soldering technique that caused a humidity
driven failure.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

Baron wrote in news:hkkgqk$a8p$1
@news.eternal-september.org:

Bob Quintal Inscribed thus:

baron wrote in
:

Attached pictures of a capacitor failure in a 6 months old
computer !

Capacitor failure or solder joint failure?

Does the voiding on End 1 actually penetrate the cap?

Not entirely sure there is no plating on the very ends of the cap.


http://www.avx.com/docs/techinfo/mlcmat.pdf is an explanation of how
these chips are made.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

"Mycelium" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:40:02 -0000, "ian field"
wrote:


"Mycelium" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability spec
for RoHS assemblies.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been low on
solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint any more.
The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

44780 style LCD modules seem particularly intolerant of lead free solder.

A relative, always looking out for bargains, picked up a DAB radio alarm
clock "reduced to clear" - on getting it home they found it was pretty
much
unusable with the LCD not working, so they passed it on to me for the same
as they paid.

When I opened it up and attempted to pull the LCD's ribbon cable connector
from the PCB receptacle, the ribbon cable pulled out of the solder joints
on
the LCD module instead.

The same relative also has another DAB radio that has an intermittent LCD
backlight, and I have a music centre with dim backlight and intermittent
display.


I still sometimes reminisce about the days of 'zebra strip' attachment
of LCDs, which made them very serviceable. :-)

I had a calculator given to me that failed due to Coka-Cola spillage,
and I took it apart, and cleaned up the strip and strip attachment area,
and reassembled it , and used it for a decade after that. It may still
be around somewhere in storage. I think it was a TI-30 or 35.

IIRC the TI-30 came in 2 versions, one had an aluminium front and the other
was entirely plastic and much thinner, if it is the one I'm thinking of the
LCD glass was clamped directly to the flexiprint by a spring clip in the
aluminium front one. On mine the keypad had suffered long term damp and
can't be dismantled for cleaning, also the traces on the flexiprint were
cracking up - I fixed a couple of them with kynar wire but in the end it had
intermittent segments so I binned it.

The TI numbers could be a bit confusing as some came in both LED & LCD
versions of the same TI-number.

I keep the slim TI-30 on the desk because its simpler than the assortment of
Casios I have, I use the TI when I don't want to volunteer for too much
brain ache all at once.

"Bob Quintal" wrote in message
...
Mycelium wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any
perceptible bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability
spec
for RoHS assemblies.

I know what RoHS compliant solder joints look like, but I deal in
High Reliability products. We cannot use Sn plated parts (because of
the whiskers.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have
been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been
low on solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint
any more.
Sure there is. NASA still insists on those criteria for any new
acquisitions.

The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so that
product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.

And they're still too thick to see they've been duped into increasing
electronic waste 5x (at least!).

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:46:31 -0500, Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 10:15:29 -0800, Mycelium
g wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:07:56 -0500, Hammy wrote:


The rms current rating was probably exceeded for the ambient temp it
overheated and Kabloowee!


Properly operating ceramic capacitors do not experience ANY heavy
current. If they are experiencing current, they are already bad.

Sure they are 10 and 22uF MLCC's (X5R) are used all the time in the
output of SMPS's so they do carry large RMS currents. That cap looks
like a large 1206 or bigger package which means it's probably a 10 or
22uf cap.

No, ya dippy dope, that is NOT a 22uF cap! That is more likely a
standard 0.01uF cap.

Now, re-do using the right math.

You are attributing storage cap nomenclature and specs with ceramic
caps, which have entirely different purposes and operating spec
declarations.

If your SMPS is switching at 500kHz are faster you don't need large
Aluminum's for hold-up in between such small switching periods.

You are still in the wrong realm.

From just one of the numerous application notes out there on MLCC's as
output caps for SMPS's.

No... as filtration on the outputs, not as the storage itself, and in
the cases where it is "the storage cap", it is usually a high voltage
application, where the output is in mA.

"Because the ESR of ceramic capacitors is low, the capacitor
temperature rise due to ripple current dissipation is usually
negligible.

Oh, boy... you are good at quoting. You are apparently not that good
at interpreting what you are reading.

Good design practice dictates that we always confirm this
and verify that the output capacitor RMS current and temperature rise
are within the manufacturer's suggested limit.

That cap in the photo is NOT an output cap in ANY circuit, you dippy
twit!

The maximum RMS ripple
current seen by the output capacitor occurs at the maximum input
voltage…."

No ****.

Sounds to me like they are working while they carry high rms current.

Sounds to me like you are lost in a lost world as it relates to the
application that cap is being used for, much less its value, idiot.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:54:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint
any more.
Sure there is. NASA still insists on those criteria for any new
acquisitions.


I did not think that you had to be hand held and told that at least I
was not referring to any exempt manufacturer. The mere mention of RoHS
infers such, and the fact that we are talking about a motherboard from
China, suggests that any mil or NASA criteria are even relevant to the
thread. Our own company makes such gear, and we have to send parts out
for re-pplating all the time to make our assemblies more reliable, so I
am familiar with the process, even at that level.

My hand work, on the other hand, in such cases, provides an appearance
that is better than that which can be produced bay any automated process.

My soldering is NASA certifiable, and I know the "Less-Is-More"
paradigm, because a lot of my stuff was for, and has gone into space.

My assemblies were used for the photo session, as they always looked
better than the machine work. Perfect wetting, and the minimal amount to
achieve proper fillet construction and bond the part with the greatest
attachment efficacy.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:54:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

Mycelium wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any
perceptible bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability
spec
for RoHS assemblies.

I know what RoHS compliant solder joints look like, but I deal in
High Reliability products. We cannot use Sn plated parts (because of
the whiskers.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have
been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been
low on solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint
any more.
Sure there is. NASA still insists on those criteria for any new
acquisitions.

The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so that
product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.


Same ****ed in the head mentality as Al Gore and his bandwagon.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 20:42:51 -0000, "ian field"
wrote:


"Mycelium" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:40:02 -0000, "ian field"
wrote:


"Mycelium" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any perceptible
bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability spec
for RoHS assemblies.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been low on
solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint any more.
The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

44780 style LCD modules seem particularly intolerant of lead free solder.

A relative, always looking out for bargains, picked up a DAB radio alarm
clock "reduced to clear" - on getting it home they found it was pretty
much
unusable with the LCD not working, so they passed it on to me for the same
as they paid.

When I opened it up and attempted to pull the LCD's ribbon cable connector
from the PCB receptacle, the ribbon cable pulled out of the solder joints
on
the LCD module instead.

The same relative also has another DAB radio that has an intermittent LCD
backlight, and I have a music centre with dim backlight and intermittent
display.


I still sometimes reminisce about the days of 'zebra strip' attachment
of LCDs, which made them very serviceable. :-)

I had a calculator given to me that failed due to Coka-Cola spillage,
and I took it apart, and cleaned up the strip and strip attachment area,
and reassembled it , and used it for a decade after that. It may still
be around somewhere in storage. I think it was a TI-30 or 35.

IIRC the TI-30 came in 2 versions, one had an aluminium front and the other
was entirely plastic and much thinner, if it is the one I'm thinking of the
LCD glass was clamped directly to the flexiprint by a spring clip in the
aluminium front one. On mine the keypad had suffered long term damp and
can't be dismantled for cleaning, also the traces on the flexiprint were
cracking up - I fixed a couple of them with kynar wire but in the end it had
intermittent segments so I binned it.

The TI numbers could be a bit confusing as some came in both LED & LCD
versions of the same TI-number.

I keep the slim TI-30 on the desk because its simpler than the assortment of
Casios I have, I use the TI when I don't want to volunteer for too much
brain ache all at once.


I think you may be a few version later than the first ones then.

This one had a zebra strip that went between the LCD bare face edge,
and the PCB or flex strip.

I actually had more than one calculator that was configured that way.

"flipper" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:54:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

Mycelium wrote in
m:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any
perceptible bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability
spec
for RoHS assemblies.

I know what RoHS compliant solder joints look like, but I deal in
High Reliability products. We cannot use Sn plated parts (because of
the whiskers.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have
been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been
low on solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint
any more.
Sure there is. NASA still insists on those criteria for any new
acquisitions.

The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so that
product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.

The same "capitalist ba*rds" that ran lead out of gasoline and paint,
no doubt.

While I think banning lead in solder is a f***ing stupid idea, I recently
heard the figure for the weight of lead put into petrol every year in the US
alone - an unbelievable 200,000 tons, this lead is (was) emitted as
microscopic particulates for everyone to breath and settles on agricultural
land finding many routes into the food chain.

The lead in solder is a stable alloy that's relatively harmless compared to
the lead particulates - they're very toxic!

flipper wrote in
:


The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so
that product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.

The same "capitalist ba*rds" that ran lead out of gasoline and
paint, no doubt.


The ba*rds did get the lead out, but for another reason,

Gasoline emissions spewed the stuff into the air we breathed. That was
unhealthy, especially in the quantities used: 375 million gallons a day
(USA 2004) Leaded gas is 0.012% Pb

Besides, the USA would have sunk through to the earth's core under the
weight.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

ian field Inscribed thus:


"flipper" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:54:06 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

Mycelium wrote in
:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:44:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

When I look at the picture labeled chip-cap.gif, i see 2 horrible
looking solder joints. There is insufficient solder. The solder is
crystallized. There is insufficient solder in the meniscus.and it
shows evidence of insufficient heating I do not see any
perceptible bulging out of the cap at either end.

You obviously are unaware of the new solder joint acceptability
spec
for RoHS assemblies.

I know what RoHS compliant solder joints look like, but I deal in
High Reliability products. We cannot use Sn plated parts (because of
the whiskers.

Grainyness is the norm. Also, "modern" motherboard houses have
been
using stencils that are too thin for years, so they have all been
low on solder for a long time.

There is no such thing as a clean, bright, shiny solder joint
any more.
Sure there is. NASA still insists on those criteria for any new
acquisitions.

The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so that
product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.

The same "capitalist ba*rds" that ran lead out of gasoline and paint,
no doubt.

While I think banning lead in solder is a f***ing stupid idea, I
recently heard the figure for the weight of lead put into petrol every
year in the US alone - an unbelievable 200,000 tons, this lead is
(was) emitted as microscopic particulates for everyone to breath and
settles on agricultural land finding many routes into the food chain.

The lead in solder is a stable alloy that's relatively harmless
compared to the lead particulates - they're very toxic!

Yes I agree. Banning lead in petrol was a wise move.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:53:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

flipper wrote in
:


The days of 63 / 37 perfection are gone.

Thank the capitalist ba*rds who convinced the EU to ban lead so
that product lifecycles would be shortened, enabling more sales.

The same "capitalist ba*rds" that ran lead out of gasoline and
paint, no doubt.


The ba*rds did get the lead out, but for another reason,

Gasoline emissions spewed the stuff into the air we breathed. That was
unhealthy, especially in the quantities used: 375 million gallons a day
(USA 2004) Leaded gas is 0.012% Pb

Besides, the USA would have sunk through to the earth's core under the
weight.


It was Euro retards claiming damage to humans. Except for the fact
that it has been proven over and over that metallic form lead poses no
threat to the environment.

If it did, there would be higher lead counts in the water tables near
lead mines and places like police shooting ranges, and there is not.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:08:43 -0800, Mycelium
wrote:


Sure they are 10 and 22uF MLCC's (X5R) are used all the time in the
output of SMPS's so they do carry large RMS currents. That cap looks
like a large 1206 or bigger package which means it's probably a 10 or
22uf cap.

No, ya dippy dope, that is NOT a 22uF cap! That is more likely a
standard 0.01uF cap.

Now, re-do using the right math.

We were both wrong twit as the OP stated it's a high voltage 20pf cap.

The math involved is beyond your limited abilities. Oh sorry I just
read your other posts. You're an expert solderer yielding better
results then NASA certified machine soldering.

You are attributing storage cap nomenclature and specs with ceramic
caps, which have entirely different purposes and operating spec
declarations.

If your SMPS is switching at 500kHz are faster you don't need large
Aluminum's for hold-up in between such small switching periods.

You are still in the wrong realm.

From just one of the numerous application notes out there on MLCC's as
output caps for SMPS's.

No... as filtration on the outputs, not as the storage itself, and in
the cases where it is "the storage cap", it is usually a high voltage
application, where the output is in mA.

"Because the ESR of ceramic capacitors is low, the capacitor
temperature rise due to ripple current dissipation is usually
negligible.

Oh, boy... you are good at quoting. You are apparently not that good
at interpreting what you are reading.

You're useless at interpreting what you're reading. My comments were
in regard to ceramic output caps on SMPS which is stated several times
in my response. Did you miss that little tidbit you illiterate piece
of ****.

I'm not the one having comprehension problems. You stated that
Ceramics aren't meant to handle large rms currents and I said nicely
yes they are. Now I'll say it not so nicely you're full of **** yes
they are and are used all the time to do just that.

Good design practice dictates that we always confirm this
and verify that the output capacitor RMS current and temperature rise
are within the manufacturer's suggested limit.

That cap in the photo is NOT an output cap in ANY circuit, you dippy
twit!

Given the OP didn't say the application where it is used or anything
other then the cap failed on a mobo an honest mistake. No need to get
belligerent.

The maximum RMS ripple
current seen by the output capacitor occurs at the maximum input
voltage…."

No ****.

Sounds to me like they are working while they carry high rms current.

Sounds to me like you are lost in a lost world as it relates to the
application that cap is being used for, much less its value, idiot.

I don't think you know what the output caps on an SMPS do idiot.What
do you think is supplying the current to the load when the switch is
off? How do you think the cap gets recharged I think they call that
rms ripple current. Or is there some other NASA bullsit term for it.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:24:27 -0500, Hammy wrote:

We were both wrong twit as the OP stated it's a high voltage 20pf cap.


You are the idiot. uF caps do not come in that substrate, and all MLCC
are fairly high in voltage. Most are 50 or 100 V. I doubt this one is
an HV cap, and the OP cannot tell from looking at a MOBO. Nor can you.
Since there is no call for an expensive, HV MLCC on ANY MOBO that I know
of, I doubt that it is a correct declaration.

But then I have a modicum of common sense. You have NONE. ZERO.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:46:43 -0800, Mycelium
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:24:27 -0500, Hammy wrote:

We were both wrong twit as the OP stated it's a high voltage 20pf cap.


You are the idiot. uF caps do not come in that substrate, and all MLCC
are fairly high in voltage. Most are 50 or 100 V. I doubt this one is
an HV cap, and the OP cannot tell from looking at a MOBO. Nor can you.
Since there is no call for an expensive, HV MLCC on ANY MOBO that I know
of, I doubt that it is a correct declaration.

But then I have a modicum of common sense. You have NONE. ZERO.

Christ your a joke. Read the OP's response he said it's a 3Kv cap!!

He didn't say he thinks. He said it is.

Yes I cant see any reason why a Kv rated cap would be used on a mobo
but it's probably massed produced made in China ****. Maybe they got a
deal on a couple of reels? Maybe they were say rejected for quality
reasons and sold at dirt cheap. What you don't think **** like that
happens in massed produced consumer electronics. Who the **** knows
you don't either you ****ing moron.


Christ your not only retarded your naive as well.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:11:12 -0500, Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:46:43 -0800, Mycelium
g wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:24:27 -0500, Hammy wrote:

We were both wrong twit as the OP stated it's a high voltage 20pf cap.


You are the idiot. uF caps do not come in that substrate, and all MLCC
are fairly high in voltage.

And quit cherry picking dip**** I said from the picture it looks like
a 1206 and I have a **** load of 1206 MLCC's in 10uF 16 TO 35Vdc so
**** off.

Most are 50 or 100 V. I doubt this one is
an HV cap, and the OP cannot tell from looking at a MOBO. Nor can you.
Since there is no call for an expensive, HV MLCC on ANY MOBO that I know
of, I doubt that it is a correct declaration.

But then I have a modicum of common sense. You have NONE. ZERO.

Christ your a joke. Read the OP's response he said it's a 3Kv cap!!

He didn't say he thinks. He said it is.

Yes I cant see any reason why a Kv rated cap would be used on a mobo
but it's probably massed produced made in China ****. Maybe they got a
deal on a couple of reels? Maybe they were say rejected for quality
reasons and sold at dirt cheap. What you don't think **** like that
happens in massed produced consumer electronics. Who the **** knows
you don't either you ****ing moron.


Christ your not only retarded your naive as well.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:11:12 -0500, Hammy wrote:


Christ your a joke. Read the OP's response he said it's a 3Kv cap!!


On a motherboard? Use some common sense, dude.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:11:12 -0500, Hammy wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 17:46:43 -0800, Mycelium
g wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 20:24:27 -0500, Hammy wrote:

We were both wrong twit as the OP stated it's a high voltage 20pf cap.


You are the idiot. uF caps do not come in that substrate, and all MLCC
are fairly high in voltage. Most are 50 or 100 V. I doubt this one is
an HV cap, and the OP cannot tell from looking at a MOBO. Nor can you.
Since there is no call for an expensive, HV MLCC on ANY MOBO that I know
of, I doubt that it is a correct declaration.

But then I have a modicum of common sense. You have NONE. ZERO.

Christ your a joke. Read the OP's response he said it's a 3Kv cap!!

He didn't say he thinks. He said it is.

And I said that he is too stupid to know.

Yes I cant see any reason why a Kv rated cap would be used on a mobo
but it's probably massed produced made in China ****. Maybe they got a
deal on a couple of reels?

Even MORE stupid. They make a million motherboards of one type, they
do not go around gathering parts from schlock houses to finish a run.

Maybe they were say rejected for quality
reasons and sold at dirt cheap.

You're an idiot. A MOBO maker buys parts in 10M+ size orders, and they
are from the folks that make them in numbers that great.

Unlike you in this realm, it is hard to commit fakery in that realm.

What you don't think **** like that
happens in massed produced consumer electronics.


You're a goddamned idiot.

Who the **** knows

You surely do not.

you don't either you ****ing moron.


You are the moron. I do not need to explain why to anyone that has
ever done a production run on board here, and has also had contact with
major contract manufacturers over there and seen it done in the big boys
realm.

The fact that you would need it explained is proof enough that you are
moronic as it gets about the industry from the get go.

Christ your not only retarded your naive as well.

You must be looking in a mirror, shaking your fist at yourself.
Bwuahahahahahahaha!

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 21:15:00 -0500, Hammy wrote:


And quit cherry picking dip**** I said from the picture it looks like
a 1206 and I have a **** load of 1206 MLCC's in 10uF 16 TO 35Vdc so
**** off.

You said that it was a high voltage cap. Make up your mind, microbrain
boy. Is it microfarads or kilovolts?

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 19:48:02 -0800, Mycelium
wrote:


Yes I cant see any reason why a Kv rated cap would be used on a mobo
but it's probably massed produced made in China ****. Maybe they got a
deal on a couple of reels?

Even MORE stupid. They make a million motherboards of one type, they
do not go around gathering parts from schlock houses to finish a run.

Get out of here idiot there are tons of different MOBO and they are
not all made in massive quantity.

Yea it's really hard for some chink to change a reel and put the
substandard parts in for part of a run and pocket 20 bucks. That's a
fortune for them idiot.

Maybe they were say rejected for quality
reasons and sold at dirt cheap.

You're an idiot. A MOBO maker buys parts in 10M+ size orders, and they
are from the folks that make them in numbers that great.

Unlike you in this realm, it is hard to commit fakery in that realm.

What you don't think **** like that
happens in massed produced consumer electronics.


You're a goddamned idiot.

Who the **** knows

You surely do not.

you don't either you ****ing moron.


You are the moron. I do not need to explain why to anyone that has
ever done a production run on board here, and has also had contact with
major contract manufacturers over there and seen it done in the big boys
realm.

The fact that you would need it explained is proof enough that you are
moronic as it gets about the industry from the get go.

You obviously know **** about mass produced made in China ****. I've
seen boards with parts the expensive parts chokes , TVS etc missing,
parts subbed obvious by looking at the silk screen and seeing the way
they had to bend the leads to get it to fit in the footprint. So
please spare me you're full of **** expertise. If you were there they
show you what they want you to see idiot. When your gone if they can
milk another buck they will; guaranteed.

So yea you are retarded and naive.

Christ your not only retarded your naive as well.

You must be looking in a mirror, shaking your fist at yourself.
Bwuahahahahahahaha!

Well at least I can look at myself in the mirror I bet you cant.